# Security clearance in the U.S. armed services **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 30, 2016, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/security-clearance-in-the-u-s-armed-services/773468 "2016-11-30T17:07:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/security-clearance-in-the-u-s-armed-services/773468/41 "2016-12-01T06:44:04Z")
> [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](#): > > Two of my daughters were in the Israeli army. One of the questions they were asked was the names of their elementary school teachers. It took a few phone calls back to their friends in the states to help them with that one. When my stepbrother-in-law (mentioned earlier) was told that he needed to provide the information on earlier employers (with dates), and trips outside of the U.S., he was given 24 hours to provide that information. It happened that my wife and I were visiting his mother and stepfather (my wife’s father) in Florida that day…and that they were in the process of moving from one house to another. So, a lot of documentation was packed up in moving boxes, and I recall several long phone calls that evening, as they worked on re-creating the dates of various events. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/security-clearance-in-the-u-s-armed-services/773468/42 "2016-12-01T12:21:55Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > When my stepbrother-in-law (mentioned earlier) was told that he needed to provide the information on earlier employers (with dates), and trips outside of the U.S., he was given 24 hours to provide that information. It happened that my wife and I were visiting his mother and stepfather (my wife’s father) in Florida that day…and that they were in the process of moving from one house to another. So, a lot of documentation was packed up in moving boxes, and I recall several long phone calls that evening, as they worked on re-creating the dates of various events. When I was going for my Top Secret I had to name my neighbors. We had recently moved there and there and it was an area where the houses were far apart. I didn’t know them, they didn’t know me. It caused the investigator some difficulty but there was nothing I could do about it. He was a contractor and kind of an idiot anyway. None of the times I went for just a Secret did I ever talk to an investigator including when I first enlisted. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/security-clearance-in-the-u-s-armed-services/773468/43 "2016-12-01T12:36:18Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > During my year at pilot training? No forms, no investigations, no nothing. > > At graduation from pilot training they took those of us going to the “real” USAF and had us fill out paperwork (SF86) to get the appropriate clearance to our upcoming aircraft assignment. The 15% of newly minted pilots staying behind in training command to train more newbie pilots? No clearance for them. No forms, no investigations, no nothing. > > 6 months and 3 TDY schools later I met with the DIA investigator and once he was satisfied I got my SECRET. Which in the clearance world is a gigantic yawn. > > So in all I’d been associated with USAF for about 5 years and about $1mil of taxpayer expense before they found out whether I was trustworthy or was a major commie-sympathizing pinko homo security risk. > > If they’d wait that long for folks in my shoes, they’re sure not going to spend money on investigations for folks just talking to recruiters about maybe possibly joining the Army. Or even folks who’ve signed on the dotted line to show up for enlistment. Were’nt you like a nuclear bomb dropper? :eek: Surely when you qualified for that there were further clearances. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/security-clearance-in-the-u-s-armed-services/773468/44 "2016-12-01T13:20:56Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Nearly everyone with a security clearance (military, civilian government employee, or civilian contractor employee) makes no decisions about the things they’re doing. They have no significant influence on what the government is doing. At best, they are lending their technical expertise to solving problems that they are assigned. Making decisions is only for top people. Where do you people come up with this stuff? Almost ALL levels make decisions everyday. Security clearance has NOTHING to do with making decisions. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/security-clearance-in-the-u-s-armed-services/773468/45 "2016-12-01T15:08:44Z")
Speak for yourself. My observation is that nearly all employees make no significant decisions about what’s going on. They merely carry out the jobs that they’ve been charged with. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/security-clearance-in-the-u-s-armed-services/773468/46 "2016-12-01T15:10:27Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > [Category 2 Yankee White](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yankee_White). Interesting. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/security-clearance-in-the-u-s-armed-services/773468/47 "2016-12-01T15:13:49Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Were’nt you \*\*[LSLGuy]\*\*like a nuclear bomb dropper? :eek: > Surely when you qualified for that there were further clearances. Yes, his specific MOS was Bomb Dropper, Nuclear. cite: **[Could You “Slim Pickens” a Bomb In?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=403006)** ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/security-clearance-in-the-u-s-armed-services/773468/48 "2016-12-01T15:17:29Z")
[sorry for multiple posts…] Say a PFC POW is released, and is found after debriefing to have revealed, on his own volition and not under duress, I don’t know, operating instructions for a mortar or something. To _me_, the field manual cannot be released (I’ve tried :)). It is thus, at some level, classified. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/security-clearance-in-the-u-s-armed-services/773468/49 "2016-12-01T16:09:42Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Speak for yourself. My observation is that nearly all employees make no significant decisions about what’s going on. They merely carry out the jobs that they’ve been charged with. And you think that every supervisor spells out EXACTLY how each of their subordinates should accomplish those jobs? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/security-clearance-in-the-u-s-armed-services/773468/50 "2016-12-01T16:11:01Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > [sorry for multiple posts…] > Say a PFC POW is released, and is found after debriefing to have revealed, on his own volition and not under duress, I don’t know, operating instructions for a mortar or something. > > To _me_, the field manual cannot be released (I’ve tried :)). It is thus, at some level, classified. Could be a FOUO (For Official Use Only) manual. Not to be released to the general public, yet not “classified” information. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/security-clearance-in-the-u-s-armed-services/773468/51 "2016-12-01T16:22:09Z")
So, to put it in a less rarefied case, if a current or former soldier releases one of those field manuals he isn’t charged with a security breach, operating under the non-JAG definitions of “classified?” (I chose mortars because I saw once on-line from the Army a list of Field Manuals including things like Human Intelligence Officer (I think), Nuclear Warhead Dissasembly, all sorts of obviously restricted-distribution stuff. Just wondering what sorts of stuff someone just out of Basic Training would not be allowed to share with the public. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/security-clearance-in-the-u-s-armed-services/773468/52 "2016-12-01T16:34:42Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > How many of you super secret probation classified soldiers had to pass a security clearance when signing up as an enlisted soldier? I fixed missile systems optics and guidance electronics. My basic + AIT was around 9 months, And the security clearance process took around six months. I would _not_ have graduated AIT nor gotten the MOS I chose if I had failed to get that clearance. I would have ended up like the guys who failed my AIT who were shipped off to Ft. Lee to learn how to be a fuel handler. You’re right that I didn’t have to have a clearance to join up, but they _did_ start the clearance process as soon as I signed my enlistment papers. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/security-clearance-in-the-u-s-armed-services/773468/53 "2016-12-01T16:41:08Z")
😕 “AIT”😕 ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/security-clearance-in-the-u-s-armed-services/773468/54 "2016-12-01T16:53:07Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > [sorry for multiple posts…] > Say a PFC POW is released, and is found after debriefing to have revealed, on his own volition and not under duress, I don’t know, operating instructions for a mortar or something. > > To _me_, the field manual cannot be released (I’ve tried :)). It is thus, at some level, classified. > [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > To _me_, the field manual cannot be released (I’ve tried :)). It is thus, at some level, classified. It’s approved for public release with unlimited distribution. Here is an easy to access link: > **[fm3-22-90.pdf](https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-22-90/fm3-22-90.pdf)** > > 14.80 MB > [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > So, to put it in a less rarefied case, if a current or former soldier releases one of those field manuals he isn’t charged with a security breach, operating under the non-JAG definitions of “classified?” (I chose mortars because I saw once on-line from the Army a list of Field Manuals including things like Human Intelligence Officer (I think), Nuclear Warhead Dissasembly, all sorts of obviously restricted-distribution stuff. > > Just wondering what sorts of stuff someone just out of Basic Training would not be allowed to share with the public. Nothing out of Basic. Perhaps at some AITs they might. But they will be fully briefed on policy and will have to sign a non-disclosure agreement. Punishment for a violation could be anything from non-judicial punishment to discharge, to full-on incarceration. Like most everything, it depends on the severity of the case, potential consequences, etc. > [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > 😕 “AIT”😕 Advanced Individual Training. In the Army, most soldiers go to a 9 Week basic training where they learn how to march and shoot and act like a soldier. There will be all kinds of soldiers all in the same group, training together. You will have an Army flute player, a fueler, a cook, a driver, a clerk, a medic and whatever else, all at basic training together. When they graduate, they will all get on different buses to be shipped off to their next phase of training, which is AIT. The clerks will go to whatever base trains clerks, medics will get on the Ft Sam Houston bus, cooks will get on the Ft Lee, VA bus, etc. AIT can range from a couple weeks to a year or more, depending on the job. Some jobs, like infantry, will do basic and AIT together in one shot. They will not be mixed with other jobs. This is called One Station Unit Training. Though, it’s still pretty much referred to as basic training. But they stay with the same group of dudes and drill sergeants for their entire basic and AIT. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/security-clearance-in-the-u-s-armed-services/773468/55 "2016-12-01T17:15:45Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > So, to put it in a less rarefied case, if a current or former soldier releases one of those field manuals he isn’t charged with a security breach, operating under the non-JAG definitions of “classified?” (I chose mortars because I saw once on-line from the Army a list of Field Manuals including things like Human Intelligence Officer (I think), Nuclear Warhead Dissasembly, all sorts of obviously restricted-distribution stuff. > > Just wondering what sorts of stuff someone just out of Basic Training would not be allowed to share with the public. I doubt that he would be charged with anything having to do with classified information. Pretty much nothing can be shared with the public without going through Public Affairs even if the manual says “Approved for Public Distribution”. I certainly wouldn’t give anyone outside the government anything based solely on my own say so. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/security-clearance-in-the-u-s-armed-services/773468/56 "2016-12-01T17:21:38Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Were’nt you like a nuclear bomb dropper? :eek: > Surely when you qualified for that there were further clearances. That wasn’t my first job as a pilot. But you’re right that the clearances for nuclear work are greater than SECRET. Which I eventually got once I had the assignment to that work and started down that training pipeline. The guys who went from pilot training directly into a nuclear role got the fancier clearances right then. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/security-clearance-in-the-u-s-armed-services/773468/57 "2016-12-01T17:22:19Z")
What’s he/she charged with, if it’s not violating “security/classification” JAG codes? And how often, roughly, does it come up, ranging from “here’s a copy of my Field Manual” to drunkenly blabshowing off at a bar? I.e., what’s the charge–if there is a catch-all-- when sentenced for the above to what **Bear Nenno** just wrote “Punishment for a violation could be anything from non-judicial punishment to discharge, to full-on incarceration. Like most everything, it depends on the severity of the case, potential consequences, etc.” ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/security-clearance-in-the-u-s-armed-services/773468/58 "2016-12-01T17:23:53Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > That wasn’t my first job as a pilot. > > But you’re right that the clearances for nuclear work are greater than SECRET… Dean Wormer level? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/security-clearance-in-the-u-s-armed-services/773468/59 "2016-12-01T17:33:46Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > What’s he/she charged with, if it’s not violating “security/classification” JAG codes? And how often, roughly, does it come up, ranging from “here’s a copy of my Field Manual” to drunkenly blabshowing off at a bar? > > I.e., what’s the charge–if there is a catch-all-- when sentenced for the above to what **Bear Nenno** just wrote “Punishment for a violation could be anything from non-judicial punishment to discharge, to full-on incarceration. Like most everything, it depends on the severity of the case, potential consequences, etc.” I don’t know what the charge would be, I’m not a JAG person, I just do communications 🙂 I know it wouldn’t be anything having to do with “classified” information, unless the information was classified. And FOUO information is NOT classified. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/security-clearance-in-the-u-s-armed-services/773468/60 "2016-12-01T18:20:53Z")
> [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](#): > > Two of my daughters were in the Israeli army. One of the questions they were asked was the names of their elementary school teachers. It took a few phone calls back to their friends in the states to help them with that one. Yeah, speaking of phone calls, my family moved a lot when I was growing up and there was no way I could remember it all. The recruiter told me to get on the phone and make as many calls as it would take, so I spent hours on the phone. Later on after basic training I guess someone was wondering about my recruiter and the very large phone bill and I had to verify that yes, I made those calls for official business. No such thing as “unlimited calling” in those days. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/security-clearance-in-the-u-s-armed-services/773468.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/security-clearance-in-the-u-s-armed-services/773468.md?page=4)