# Seeing the Phantom Menace again for the first time in 14 years. My thoughts **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies\ **Created:** [August 12, 2017, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeing-the-phantom-menace-again-for-the-first-time-in-14-years-my-thoughts/793406 "2017-08-12T03:48:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeing-the-phantom-menace-again-for-the-first-time-in-14-years-my-thoughts/793406/21 "2017-08-13T00:23:10Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I still don’t like it. If it was supposed to be a combat or a death sport then all the jocularity around it was in very poor taste. If the crowds are there to see crashes and death, why is the course set up so everything happens away from the spectators? Anakin’s pod is so fast he catches up after the start, but not fast enough to pass them and keep going. > > It just don’t add up. It is totally dumb. His pod doesn’t even look as awesome or powerful as Sebulba’s. > [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > 1. The casting of young Anakin was terrible. I’m not sure who thought that kid could act. I’m not sure why anyone insisted that he act like he had no real emotion. He’s the focus of the whole damn movie: the very young Darth Vader. I recall feeling in the theater watching it the first time that his performance was a disaster. Every time I watch the movie again, I’m convinced I was right. > > 2. At the time, the CGI was fairly good, as I recall. I refuse to let myself be affected in my opinion on this by current CGI abilities. After all, I recall what sci-fi movies looked like before there **was** CGI. 1. Yes, and if you watch the making of, there was very clearly a more talented boy who kind of looked like Mark Hamill that they set aside. I believe the casting director very much tried to push for the boy who ended up being runner up, but Lucas _insisted_ Jake Lloyd was the one. I have no idea why. 2. It did look pretty good in the theater to my 1999 eyes, but it doesn’t look as good as I think it could have. I feel like it needed one more layer of texturing to make it finished. Again, Return of the Jedi effects hold up better. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeing-the-phantom-menace-again-for-the-first-time-in-14-years-my-thoughts/793406/22 "2017-08-13T00:44:15Z")
I remember when tpm came out a lot of people said larry kasdan or Irwin allen should of directed and no one changed their mind on the other two … but if I remember correctly didn’t Anakin use the force once or twice in the pod race with out meaning or knowing how to ? ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeing-the-phantom-menace-again-for-the-first-time-in-14-years-my-thoughts/793406/23 "2017-08-13T00:47:08Z")
> [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](#): > > Obligatory must-see: [Princess Leia’s Stolen Death Star Plans.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NYD3QtyEGGM) > > The thing that disappointed me about TPM was all the kissing. That parody band is pretty great! Not SW related, but most [Dopers will groove to this one.](https://youtube.com/watch?v=UHysmKGGLA8) ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeing-the-phantom-menace-again-for-the-first-time-in-14-years-my-thoughts/793406/24 "2017-08-13T01:06:27Z")
> [@nightshadea](#): > > I remember when tpm came out a lot of people said larry kasdan or Irwin allen should of directed and no one changed their mind on the other two … but if I remember correctly didn’t Anakin use the force once or twice in the pod race with out meaning or knowing how to ? I’m not sure that he did. When he reached out with his “rein” to get the part that detached, I thought it was magnetic, not a force pull. His general ability to have reflexes good enough for podracing is the evidence of the Force. ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeing-the-phantom-menace-again-for-the-first-time-in-14-years-my-thoughts/793406/25 "2017-08-13T01:18:15Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > I believe the casting director very much tried to push for the boy who ended up being runner up, but Lucas _insisted_ Jake Lloyd was the one. I have no idea why. The rumor is that Lucas really thought they were going to be able to get Leonardo DiCaprio to play Anakin in Episodes II and III, and so he pushed for Lloyd because of how similar they looked. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeing-the-phantom-menace-again-for-the-first-time-in-14-years-my-thoughts/793406/26 "2017-08-13T01:29:36Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > 1. Yes, and if you watch the making of, there was very clearly a more talented boy who kind of looked like Mark Hamill that they set aside. I believe the casting director very much tried to push for the boy who ended up being runner up, but Lucas _insisted_ Jake Lloyd was the one. I have no idea why. I was skeptical; I figured you know Jake Lloyd was kind of a disappointment, and that _that_ was maybe making you see a Could-Have-Been that wasn’t really there. I was wrong; you’re right, the kid who looks more like Mark Hamill delivers his lines with just enough more serious-mindedness than Lloyd to make it clear – and then one of his interactions with li’l Natalie Portman was the convincer. ---
**Author:** ![Trancephalic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trancephalic/32/380_2.png) [@Trancephalic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trancephalic)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeing-the-phantom-menace-again-for-the-first-time-in-14-years-my-thoughts/793406/27 "2017-08-13T02:02:41Z")
The trade dispute shit was just static to cover the fact that TPM doesn’t even have the bare skeleton of a swashbuckling adventure. The most onerous being no character has any development. Everyone knows anakin will become vader going in, but it’s not even foreshadowed here. His sweetness isn’t a façade. He never lies, never losses his temper. He doesn’t manipulate, or used his latent abilities unscrupulously. He doesn’t have an inflated ego, or rub his emancipation in the noses of his peers. X has already been solved but Lucas eschewed the algebra. Anakin’s descent only makes sense because we expect it to happen. But it never happens in a believable manner. ---
**Author:** ![Reddy\_Mercury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@Reddy\_Mercury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reddy_Mercury)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeing-the-phantom-menace-again-for-the-first-time-in-14-years-my-thoughts/793406/28 "2017-08-13T02:25:14Z")
> [@Trancephalic](#): > > The trade dispute shit was just static to cover the fact that TPM doesn’t even have the bare skeleton of a swashbuckling adventure. The most onerous being no character has any development. Everyone knows anakin will become vader going in, but it’s not even foreshadowed here. **His sweetness isn’t a façade. He never lies, never losses his temper. He doesn’t manipulate, or used his latent abilities unscrupulously. He doesn’t have an inflated ego, or rub his emancipation in the noses of his peers.** > > X has already been solved but Lucas eschewed the algebra. Anakin’s descent only makes sense because we expect it to happen. But it never happens in a believable manner. To be fair, you don’t want Anakin to be unlikable from the outset. Showing Anakin being a snotnosed brat would make him an unlikable character right out the gate. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeing-the-phantom-menace-again-for-the-first-time-in-14-years-my-thoughts/793406/29 "2017-08-13T02:33:27Z")
The lightsaber fight was terrific, and I also really enjoyed the pod race. And even though Jar Jar was terrible, I thought the Gungan underwater city was pretty cool. And even though they had some terrible lines, Liam Neeson and Ewan MacGregor did the best they could with the script. The brief scenes with Chancellor Valorum (underused) and Palpatine were also good, from my memory. Pretty much everything else was very bad (i.e. bad B-movie writing paired with good special effects). ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeing-the-phantom-menace-again-for-the-first-time-in-14-years-my-thoughts/793406/30 "2017-08-13T02:54:40Z")
> [@Reddy\_Mercury](#): > > If you look at the films as a homage to the films Lucas was inspired by, they’re brilliant. Lucas loved hammy sci-fi swashbuckler type films which had really cheesy dialogue and romances…And he basically made that sort of film with AAA production values. I mean, even going back to SW 1977, listen to some of the dialogue without the lens of nostalgia - the dialogue is cheesy there too. > > The George Lucas helmed SW films (prequels, and ANH) are basically cheesy B movies with big budgets. The universe of the original trilogy felt lived-in; the blue milk came out of a plastic pitcher, there was dust on the landspeeder, the characters in the holographic chess set flickered a bit. Something about the prequels just seemed too perfect, like an architect’s or a fashion designer’s sketches don’t look like the real things. Things get dented and scratched. People take shortcuts and wear paths across the grass. Stormtroopers have to scratch themselves every now and then. The prequels weren’t lived in, they were imagined. The original trilogy were swashbucklers, but the sequels were more like the epics in the '50s and '60s. Everything had to be bigger and grander than the biggest, grandest things ever. Look at [this picture](http://gutenbergdead.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/11-%D0%BA%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BE.png) from _Cleopatra_ and tell me George Lucas didn’t want to put that in the prequels. And while we’re on the subject, how many times during the three prequel movies was a character told to stay put, and then just charged off and did whatever the fuck they wanted? “Anakin, wait in this hangar bay and don’t go anywhere.” “Amidala, wait in the ship and don’t go into the robot assembly area.” “Anakin, wait here while I confront the Emperor and then I’ll trust you again.” Seriously, has anyone counted? ---
**Author:** ![Trancephalic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trancephalic/32/380_2.png) [@Trancephalic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trancephalic)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeing-the-phantom-menace-again-for-the-first-time-in-14-years-my-thoughts/793406/31 "2017-08-13T02:55:23Z")
> [@Reddy\_Mercury](#): > > To be fair, you don’t want Anakin to be unlikable from the outset. Showing Anakin being a snotnosed brat would make him an unlikable character right out the gate. I’m not suggesting he should’ve been all the above, if that’s what you’re driving at. My point is there needed to be something perceptively “off” about Anakin from the outset, otherwise the story is extraneous. His reckless abandon in the second movie is not nothing, so the story could only logically start from there, but it didn’t. And even then, the arc left a lot to be desired. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeing-the-phantom-menace-again-for-the-first-time-in-14-years-my-thoughts/793406/32 "2017-08-13T02:56:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The lightsaber fight was terrific, and I also really enjoyed the pod race. And even though Jar Jar was terrible, I thought the Gungan underwater city was pretty cool. And even though they had some terrible lines, Liam Neeson and Ewan MacGregor did the best they could with the script. At that: what do you think of the oft-mentioned idea that Neeson maybe should’ve been the background character who stays on the ship meditating or whatever, while McGregor would’ve been the hotshot apprentice who tries a Jedi mind trick on Watto and then rigs that dice game to win himself a slave? After all, it’s Obi-Wan that we’re going to care about in the next two movies, right? We’re going to watch _him,_ in over his head, struggling to mentor Anakin; and we’re going to _know,_ throughout, that he’s the from-a-certain-point-of-view conman who breaks out the Jedi mind trick as Plan A – and who privately laments that he took it upon himself to train Anakin after sending the youth’s potential. But if he’s the guy back on the ship while Qui-Gon is out there doing that, the whole through-line doesn’t really _happen_; he trains Anakin because that was Qui-Gon’s call, and he acts kinda like Qui-Gon did, and – that’s less of a _story,_ isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeing-the-phantom-menace-again-for-the-first-time-in-14-years-my-thoughts/793406/33 "2017-08-13T03:07:31Z")
Dammit, _sensing_. That’s _sensing_ the youth’s potential. Autocorrect may well get us all killed someday. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeing-the-phantom-menace-again-for-the-first-time-in-14-years-my-thoughts/793406/34 "2017-08-13T03:08:02Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > At that: what do you think of the oft-mentioned idea that Neeson maybe should’ve been the background character who stays on the ship meditating or whatever, while McGregor would’ve been the hotshot apprentice who tries a Jedi mind trick on Watto and then rigs that dice game to win himself a slave? > > After all, it’s Obi-Wan that we’re going to care about in the next two movies, right? We’re going to watch _him,_ in over his head, struggling to mentor Anakin; and we’re going to _know,_ throughout, that he’s the from-a-certain-point-of-view conman who breaks out the Jedi mind trick as Plan A – and who privately laments that he took it upon himself to train Anakin after sending the youth’s potential. > > But if he’s the guy back on the ship while Qui-Gon is out there doing that, the whole through-line doesn’t really _happen_; he trains Anakin because that was Qui-Gon’s call, and he acts kinda like Qui-Gon did, and – that’s less of a _story,_ isn’t it? Maybe, though I don’t think that was anywhere near the top 10 of TPM’s problems. Fix Jar Jar, fix the dialogue, fix Anakin (I don’t blame poor Jake), fix the juvenile silliness, and then maybe we’ve got a decent SW movie, and then we can work on making it a great one. In the future when we can use our omnipotent AIs to totally recreate movies… ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeing-the-phantom-menace-again-for-the-first-time-in-14-years-my-thoughts/793406/35 "2017-08-13T03:16:23Z")
> [@Trancephalic](#): > > The trade dispute shit was just static to cover the fact that TPM doesn’t even have the bare skeleton of a swashbuckling adventure. The most onerous being no character has any development. Everyone knows anakin will become vader going in, but it’s not even foreshadowed here. His sweetness isn’t a façade. He never lies, never losses his temper. He doesn’t manipulate, or used his latent abilities unscrupulously. He doesn’t have an inflated ego, or rub his emancipation in the noses of his peers. > > X has already been solved but Lucas eschewed the algebra. Anakin’s descent only makes sense because we expect it to happen. But it never happens in a believable manner. You know that’s one thing jk rowling got right in the harry potter series is she made tom riddle a snot (tho not too big of a one )in his orgins that you know he was going to be evil just everyone around him thought they could make him better ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeing-the-phantom-menace-again-for-the-first-time-in-14-years-my-thoughts/793406/36 "2017-08-13T03:42:46Z")
Not to kick a move when it’s down but I didn’t like the pod racing scene even from when I first saw it. It goes on way too long. Was never really into Darth Maul either. He looks cool but hardly does anything in the movie. I actually would have liked more Politics. I know everyone hates that about the prequels but the underlying story of a Democracy devolving into dictatorship is fascinating if done well. This wasn’t. What was worse is the plot makes absolutely no sense given that Sidious and Palpatine are the same person. Sidous does everything he can to make the queen sign the treaty but if she actually signed it he wouldn’t have gotten the sympathy vote that swept him into office which was his real goal all along. So basically he had to make all these plans but secretly want them all to fail and have his apprentice die so he could then “win”. Makes no sense. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeing-the-phantom-menace-again-for-the-first-time-in-14-years-my-thoughts/793406/37 "2017-08-13T03:48:29Z")
> [@nightshadea](#): > > You know that’s one thing jk rowling got right in the harry potter series is she made tom riddle a snot (tho not too big of a one )in his orgins that you know he was going to be evil just everyone around him thought they could make him better It’s a good comparison. Tom Riddle was charming and so many people believed that they could help him. I think they deluded themselves into thinking he couldn’t be \*that \*evil. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeing-the-phantom-menace-again-for-the-first-time-in-14-years-my-thoughts/793406/38 "2017-08-13T04:05:57Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > 1. The final light saber battle was epic. Still is epic. It’s beautifully choreographed but devoid of any sort of tension or emotional investment. Darth Maul isn’t a character at all, Qui-Gon only barely so. It’s unclear, in fact, why they are fighting in that place, or over what; why is Maul on Naboo at all? ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeing-the-phantom-menace-again-for-the-first-time-in-14-years-my-thoughts/793406/39 "2017-08-13T04:58:56Z")
> [@Trancephalic](#): > > I’m not suggesting he should’ve been all the above, if that’s what you’re driving at. My point is there needed to be something perceptively “off” about Anakin from the outset, otherwise the story is extraneous. His reckless abandon in the second movie is not nothing, so the story could only logically start from there, but it didn’t. And even then, the arc left a lot to be desired. The character flaws that lead to Anakin Skywalker becoming Darth Vader are actually shown in _The Phantom Menace_. First of all, Anakin has supreme confidence in himself, and in the rightness of what he wants. Second of all, he fears loss of those he loves. In _TPM_, that’s loss of his mother. Both of those traits are mentioned in the movie. Sadly, the actor in question fails to demonstrate either emotion well, and he is not helped by the poor dialogue he is given with which to do so. But one of the most memorable scenes is the one where he is being interviewed by the Jedi Council, and Yoda delivers the “Fear is the path to the darkside” lecture. That’s initiated by Anakin’s fear of losing his mother. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeing-the-phantom-menace-again-for-the-first-time-in-14-years-my-thoughts/793406/40 "2017-08-13T05:17:36Z")
**Darth Maul** was one bad dude, one tough mother! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeing-the-phantom-menace-again-for-the-first-time-in-14-years-my-thoughts/793406.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeing-the-phantom-menace-again-for-the-first-time-in-14-years-my-thoughts/793406.md?page=3)