# Seeking advice on daughter's denial issue **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 6, 2017, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeking-advice-on-daughters-denial-issue/783894 "2017-04-06T16:31:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2017, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeking-advice-on-daughters-denial-issue/783894/21 "2017-04-06T19:18:16Z")
This is a difficult situation. I agree that your daughter is in denial. \*\*But so are you. \*\* You keep thinking you can change her behavior and get her to do what you want/what’s right/what’s best for her (and the family). You cannot. This is the reality that you haven’t accepted yet: you cannot change your daughter. You cannot make her see what she won’t see. Just as I suspect I can’t make YOU see what YOU won’t see, namely, that you are on a dead end road WRT to her. I feel for you, too. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2017, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeking-advice-on-daughters-denial-issue/783894/22 "2017-04-06T19:23:40Z")
> [@Athabasca](#): > > We are negative toward her and that’s no fun and it’s not working. It’s not nearly the same scope or seriousness, but my wife and I went through something similar when our son turned into an oppositional little demon upon turning three. We found ourselves at odds with him and feeling like we were being consistently negative and combative. Progress basically came as much from managing our own expectations as anything else. Best of luck to you. One other thought: In addition to food and shelter, please also consider being willing to pay for some method of birth control, no questions asked. ---
**Author:** ![Athabasca](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Athabasca](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athabasca)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2017, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeking-advice-on-daughters-denial-issue/783894/23 "2017-04-06T19:37:14Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > It’s not nearly the same scope or seriousness, but my wife and I went through something similar when our son turned into an oppositional little demon upon turning three. We found ourselves at odds with him and feeling like we were being consistently negative and combative. Progress basically came as much from managing our own expectations as anything else. Best of luck to you. > > One other thought: In addition to food and shelter, please also consider being willing to pay for some method of birth control, no questions asked. Yes, we pay for the birth control, no questions asked:) Also the citalopram. I know, managing expectations is important. As a couple of posters said, or implied, our kids don’t grow up to be like us, or more successful, necessarily. Some do fail, and fail, or succeed and fail, but our timeline for being involved is nearly over and it’s time to move to the sidelines. Hubby and I are very much looking forward to the next chapter when she is moved out and independent, and that needs to be sooner rather than later. I and my husband will sit down with her and figure out a plan for how we all live together, and when she finds work, a plan for her moving out will be made as well. There has to be an end point to this for everyone’s sakes. Thanks to all who weighed in. I have a clearer idea how to move forward. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2017, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeking-advice-on-daughters-denial-issue/783894/24 "2017-04-06T19:48:44Z")
Reading the additional comments: in my job, I often encounter folk who have no income, yet were not homeless. Not just younger folk, but folk up into their 50s. In every single such case, there is someone - a parent, sibling, child, friend, SO - who is enabling the first person. IMO only a very small percentage of such people I encounter are incapable of doing anything to improve their situation. You may not be able to (and likely do not WANT to) control your dtr’s choices and actions, but you and your husband CAN control what you two do and choose. Focus on that. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2017, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeking-advice-on-daughters-denial-issue/783894/25 "2017-04-06T20:06:47Z")
Kudos to **Tom Tildrum** and **Dinsdale** for their insight. While not exactly like the OP’s situation but similar enough. My son was stuck at 19. He didn’t like college and only liked certain aspects of work but not enough to look for a full time job. He had flunked out of two different colleges, primarily because he wouldn’t go to class, would miss tests, etc. What he did like was hanging out with his girlfriend and gaming late into the night. I finally set some conditions on his life if he was going to continue living with and being supported by me. 1. If he wasn’t going to go to school full time then he needed to be working full time, or some combination of school and work that was considered full time. 2. No more staying up every night into the wee hours of the night online. To bed at a decent time and up and out of bed by 9:00 am. 3. If he was living with us and was at home during the evening meal time, he needed to eat with the family at least 3 nights a week. He needed to be a part of the family, not just treating our home as a dorm. 4. He was diagnosed with ADHD about 2 years prior, and was prescribed medication as treatment, he had to stay current on his medication and med-checks with his PCP. 5. If he was working, and not going to school full time, then a % of his pay would come to me as a token payment of room and board. If any of these conditions weren’t met, I could revoke his support and living privileges at our home. I also explained that if he didn’t want to have these conditions, that he was free to leave anytime. He was very upset by these conditions and accused me of trying set him up so that I would have an excuse to kick him out. I explained to him that I was attempting to help him set some personal guidelines for his life, since he wasn’t attempting to do that for himself, and that if I wanted to kick him out, I didn’t need an excuse. He moved out 3 days later. For a year he lived with his mom and stepdad continuing his past patterns. We still saw each other every other week, had lunch together etc. He came to see his sisters periodically and saw us at holidays, birthdays, etc. After about a year, he told me that his stepdad had graciously given him 2 years of GI bill benefits to use and that he was enrolling at one of the other state universities about 3 hours from where we live. I wished him luck and hoped that he would follow through and not waste the benefit that his stepdad had offered him. Well, we are almost a through his first year there and he has a 3.3 GPA. I’m very proud of him that he’s following through on what **he** wants to do. I would have been equally happy if he had gotten a full time job and did the best he could do there as well. I realize that my son’s situation isn’t the same as your daughters. There’s no abusive girlfriend in the mix, etc. But at some point, you have to let them make their own way even if that means failing at life. ---
**Author:** ![cormac262](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@cormac262](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cormac262)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2017, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeking-advice-on-daughters-denial-issue/783894/26 "2017-04-06T20:09:52Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Like it or not, ready or not, 19 is an adult. It’s time to step out of her life, push her out of your nest, and let her face real life. Where choices have consequences. And really foolish choices, like staying in a violent relationship, come with truly harsh consequences. None of us have the power to change that for you or her, I’m afraid. > > This **IS** the age she should be learning life lessons, making mistakes, and screwing up. While she is young enough to bounce back, step up, come into herself, whatever you choose to call it. None of these life lessons get easier by being delayed, until she is older. Because being older won’t make her wiser if she’s being insulated from consequences. You can’t protect her forever, if you don’t want reality to crush her, then NOW is when she needs to start learning how to handle it. > > You need to know that what’s called ‘tough love’, isn’t so named because it’s so very harsh on the child. No, it’s because the tough part is for the caped crusader parents to stand by and watch as their child finally faces the ugly consequences of real life and poor choices. And quite possibly crashes her life spectacularly. > > But being a caped crusader parent is not as it appears either. Rescuing people feels awesome, it’s a heady feeling that hugely strokes the ego. So, you gotta examine why you’re doing what you’re doing too I think. Do you honestly believe letting her live rent free, not work, etc is helping her? Or is it maybe just a lot easier for you, than watching her crash her life? Something else to about to think about maybe. Perhaps she’s not the only one with a little denial at work. > > Point is, she’s an adult now. You had your chance to prepare her for the real world, and I’m certain you did your best. But your shot’s over now. She has to move into an adult world, ready or not. She has to walk her own path, make her own choices, and live with the consequences of those choices. And again, neither you, nor any of us can change that. It’s time for you to stop trying in my most humble opinion. > > Good Luck to you all ! Another +1 on this view/advice. But to clarify I think there are two separate issues involved: 1. The boyfriend issue. 2. Your “enabling” her to live in this manner IMHO the 1st issue, the boyfriend, is one that you need not concern yourself with (as difficult as that may be). She is an adult. You need to give her the freedom to make the choices she does, and either suffer the consequences or learn from them. IF she asks, you can share your opinions. But to directly get involved - even if domestic violence is involved, can be tricky and may lead to alienating her. On the other hand, the second issue is something you DO have control over, and you can/should be laying down the law on. Set aside that she is your daughter, and think of her as just “some” 19 year old you would want to “support”. - It would VERY reasonable to insist upon rent (and included would be contribution toward food). - And it would also be reasonable to adjust (lower) the amount based on attending school and maintaining passing grades. - If you are still indirectly supporting her for things like car insurance (car payments even), health insurance, cell phone plan, etc., you devise a transition plan: “after 1 year she takes over 1/2, after 2 years she takes over all” or something like that. You mention “not protecting”, yet providing shelter and food. “Shelter and food” are BIG responsibilities, and she needs to start taking responsibility for these needs. The “tough love” part comes when you lay down these rules, and she doesn’t comply or stalls with recurring excuses. So once you lay down these rules, you need to 1) set a date for when rent starts, 2) indicate the “grace period” should that date be missed, and 3) ENFORCE the rule: if she still hasn’t complied by the end of the grace period, you kick her out. Regardless of the effect such a change might have on the relationship with the boyfriend, she will start to learn about other responsibilities, and about prioritizing her time/energy. ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2017, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeking-advice-on-daughters-denial-issue/783894/27 "2017-04-06T21:48:51Z")
My sister was a similar case - got pregnant and married (to my parents’ objection) her first boyfriend. Not oppositional, just apathetic. Along comes child #2, away goes hubby. My parents couldn’t bear to see grandchildren go without , so they provided for them, so much as to buy a house for her, which she trashed. Finally, after 20+ years of this, my father died, and my mother told my sister no more handouts. It’s hard to grow up when you’re 20, much harder when you’re 40+. Eventually my sister has gotten her life somewhat in gear. My mother died and she got her portion of the estate, which would stave off insolvency. Now she lives check to check, occasionally hitting her adult daughter up for some money, but mostly getting by on her own. You’re doing her no favors by allowing her to sponge off you. In the long run, what happens if you both die, and she’s left to try to figure things out at the end of her life, with no hope of establishing a life for herself. Good luck. StG ---
**Author:** ![edwardcoast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cab0a1/32.png) [@edwardcoast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwardcoast)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeking-advice-on-daughters-denial-issue/783894/28 "2017-04-08T12:24:20Z")
> [@astro](#): > > If you do not literally kick her out nothing will ever change. Don’t lie to yourself that she will “grow up”. Some people are simply emotional children in adult bodies and will stay that way until external circumstances force a change. At 19 you can still correct the problem but you HAVE to force her out of the house. If you don’t it’s all on you. I agree with this 100%. I know someone who has gone through this in their own family over the past few decades. If OP doesn’t take charge of the situation and do as suggested, what is going to happen in the future is the OP and spouse will get older. As they get older and can’t cope with things as well, this child will take over, and before you know it, the OP and spouse will be cut-off from everyone they know as they have been worn down by the passage of time. A very depressing and grim life to have in your old age, with no friends or family because you have someone else controlling everything and lying. This creates a Stockholm syndrome. The OP and spouse must do this not only for the child’s best interest, but for their own self-preservation of sanity and dignity. Early in my career, I worked with a guy who told me when he was a young man he had problems, and got mental health help from professionals and he was living a normal and successful professional life. I never would have guested this about his past if he didn’t tell me. He only has those who made sure he got professional help. ---
**Author:** ![edwardcoast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cab0a1/32.png) [@edwardcoast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwardcoast)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeking-advice-on-daughters-denial-issue/783894/29 "2017-04-08T12:26:50Z")
> [@Dung\_Beetle](#): > > The boyfriend is worrying, and I hate him very much already. 🙂 However, I think you’re right about concentrating on your daughter’s other issues. > > You say there’s a lot of negativity in your relationship. Would it be possible for you and/or your husband to sit down with her and say something like, "Honey, we’re really worried about you. Are you okay? Is there something you want, and how can we help you?"etc. If you could break through her shell, maybe you’d know what to do next. > > _sigh_ Don’t listen to me. I’m an enabling parent myself. The tough love folks are right. I know you mean well in your suggestion, but people who are in denial continue to claim nothing is wrong, if anything, they blame the person asking the question that’s the problem. They will say anything to allow the situation to continue without changes, because this is what they want. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeking-advice-on-daughters-denial-issue/783894/30 "2017-04-08T17:55:39Z")
> [@glee](#): > > I’m sorry to point this out, but she has no reason to change her behaviour. > Therefore this will go on for years. Her daughter sounds exactly like my cousin. My cousin’s parents (my aunt and uncle) have been enabling their daughter for many decades. My cousin is now 50. She has never had steady job, has had countless abusive boyfriends, and her parents still support her. She lives in an apartment and her parents pay for _everything_. I feel very bad for her father… he is 76 years old and must still work to support his daughter. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeking-advice-on-daughters-denial-issue/783894/31 "2017-04-08T18:03:41Z")
My brother’s oldest son did one semester of college, then announced he was not going back and was not going to work because “we have money.” My brother immediately pointed out that “Your mother and I have the money. You have nothing.” They told him if he wanted to stay there, he’d have to get a job and go to community college part time or move out. No questions, no excuses. He did so, and is now back in college full time. What need of yours is your daughter satisfying that you don’t want her to grow up and be an adult? ---
**Author:** ![Athabasca](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Athabasca](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athabasca)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeking-advice-on-daughters-denial-issue/783894/32 "2017-04-08T20:07:34Z")
I’m following this, thanks for the insights. I appreciate the tough questions, as does my husband. We’ve made a very concrete timeline for our daughter to be moved out, as we feel that is the best action at this point, so June 1, regardless of whether she has employment. She feels her bf will support her. Maybe she is right, who knows? Or maybe she’ll find a job she can stick to. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeking-advice-on-daughters-denial-issue/783894/33 "2017-04-08T20:21:08Z")
> [@Athabasca](#): > > Honestly, we are not protecting her. We have withdrawn everything from her except food and shelter… That’s pretty much the definition of “protecting her.” You are deluding yourselves. ---
**Author:** ![edwardcoast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cab0a1/32.png) [@edwardcoast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwardcoast)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2017, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeking-advice-on-daughters-denial-issue/783894/34 "2017-04-09T05:25:30Z")
> [@Athabasca](#): > > I’m following this, thanks for the insights. I appreciate the tough questions, as does my husband. We’ve made a very concrete timeline for our daughter to be moved out, as we feel that is the best action at this point, so June 1, regardless of whether she has employment. She feels her bf will support her. Maybe she is right, who knows? Or maybe she’ll find a job she can stick to. Good plan. More families than most people are aware of have situations like this they face, but you don’t know about it unless you know the family well or if this is happening to a close friend of yours who will share this. The people who talk about this, they talk about it with such shame they don’t even want to go into the details. I have another friend who tells me his brother-in-law is in his 50s is like this, and said the guy has never held a job. He has a talent for getting money from other family members to continue to survive without working. My friend will come home from work, just as his brother-in-law is leaving and sees that his wife has once again written her brother a check. Clearly there are mental health issues to deal with, but even people who have mental health struggles understand the concept of boundaries. They know if a plane leaves at 7 PM, if they are not on it, they will miss it. If you set a hard date they have to move out by, you need to have a plan in place that she can’t miss it. Make it as real as possible for her, let her know you are advertising her room for rent to bring in income. Or have workers show up to convert the room to something else useful like a sewing room, rec room or library. Remove the bed, etc. Make an appointment to have a locksmith show up when she is there to discuss changing the locks in the house. Whatever you know will make this real for her. Be prepared that she might fake an illness. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2017, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeking-advice-on-daughters-denial-issue/783894/35 "2017-04-09T09:34:26Z")
Is she suffering from depression? ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2017, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeking-advice-on-daughters-denial-issue/783894/36 "2017-04-09T12:25:12Z")
> [@Athabasca](#): > > I’m following this, thanks for the insights. I appreciate the tough questions, as does my husband. We’ve made a very concrete timeline for our daughter to be moved out, as we feel that is the best action at this point, so June 1, regardless of whether she has employment. She feels her bf will support her. Maybe she is right, who knows? Or maybe she’ll find a job she can stick to. I think this is the best plan. We’re working on my mother’s will now and my mother is jumping through hoops trying to support the two siblings who have never really worked. One is just turning 50 and other other is 56. It’s pretty much impossible for them at this stage of their lives. Fortunately for my sister she was able to get on SSI and between that and the apartment my mother has provided for her, she is able to survive. I think that their lives would have been very different if my mother had taken the tough steps which you are now. It’s pretty obvious that your daughter has a lot of issues, but unfortunately, it’s really hard to help especially when relationships have gone sour. You may want to consider counseling for you on how to best deal with the problem. There isn’t a need for it to be long-term or anything like that. Just get some expert advice. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2017, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeking-advice-on-daughters-denial-issue/783894/37 "2017-04-09T16:16:17Z")
Do you know your daughter’s history before she was placed with you? I ask because we have friends who also adopted a toddler, who is now 18 & is very emotionally troubled. Their daughter had been removed from her mother’s custody at 18 months (I think) due to severe child abuse, then adopted by them after being in foster care for a few months, during which time parental rights were legally terminated. Our friends feel that they were idealistically naive as to how her early experiences damaged her. They thought they could love all the pain out of her, and in spite of being stellar parents, it just didn’t work out that way. It is also possible she has some heritable form of mental illness. That probably doesn’t help you in any way, but I know that parents in your situation often feel guilty that they can’t “fix” the kid & torture themselves about how things might be different if only they had done X. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2017, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeking-advice-on-daughters-denial-issue/783894/38 "2017-04-09T20:09:56Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > Is she suffering from depression? Another possibility is ADHD/PI, which is insidious and can cause depression. There are past threads on it, if you’re interested. Sorry you’re going through this **Athabasca**. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2017, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeking-advice-on-daughters-denial-issue/783894/39 "2017-04-09T22:23:50Z")
> [@Athabasca](#): > > I’m following this, thanks for the insights. I appreciate the tough questions, as does my husband. We’ve made a very concrete timeline for our daughter to be moved out, as we feel that is the best action at this point, so June 1, regardless of whether she has employment. She feels her bf will support her. Maybe she is right, who knows? Or maybe she’ll find a job she can stick to. Good for you. But this will only work if you stand firm. Once any measure of negotiations start, know that you are being manipulated. To give in at that point would be a monumental mistake. Also know that we understand how difficult this tough love stuff is to dole out. Best of luck, mmm ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeking-advice-on-daughters-denial-issue/783894/40 "2017-04-11T13:27:23Z")
When June 1st comes and she says “Oh, I don’t have any where to go, but I can move in with a friend in a few weeks” give her a list of homeless shelters, lock her out and change the locks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeking-advice-on-daughters-denial-issue/783894.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seeking-advice-on-daughters-denial-issue/783894.md?page=3)