# Seinfeld: "Not that there's anything wrong with it" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 19, 2015, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-not-that-theres-anything-wrong-with-it/738007 "2015-11-19T19:53:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-not-that-theres-anything-wrong-with-it/738007/41 "2015-11-21T19:01:23Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I see it this way — What the episode is mocking is the fact that Jerry and his friends nominally have no problem with homosexuality, but they are horrified at the thought that someone else might think they are homosexuals. This is a transition period for the acceptance of homosexuality in society. You might personally have no problem with it, but you don’t want others to think you are one—why? Because you’ll upset your parents? Because it will harm your career? Because you won’t get dates? Because in general people will start treating you differently? > > If we are moving towards a society in which homosexuality is accepted then it really wouldn’t matter if everyone thought you were homosexual. It would be a purely private, personal matter. But we’re not there yet. That’s what makes the episode a rather sophisticated commentary on the state of our culture at that moment in time. This is largely how I viewed the episode. As well as not wishing to be viewed as homosexual I suspect the characters were slightly discomforted with homosexuality. The characters realise they should not be judgemental, and by and large they are not, but as a bunch of people born around 1960 they would not be quite as relaxed about the issue as your average man or woman born thirty years later. They know outwardly how they should act, but inwardly there is just an element of discomfort. ---
**Author:** ![scoots](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@scoots](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scoots)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-not-that-theres-anything-wrong-with-it/738007/42 "2015-11-21T19:39:38Z")
In addition to some of the remarks made above, I think it was also mocking the whole social convention of having to say “I’m not gay. Not that there’s anything wrong with that”. If you say “I’m not gay” then it is generally understood that you have to follow that with “Not that there’s anything…etc”. It’s become a mantra. This is shown by the fact that if, for example, Jerry said it to George then George would nod and indicate with his arms that he understood Jerry had to append the “Not that there’s anything wrong with that” because that is now an accepted mantra. Or if Elaine said it to Jerry, you could see from Jerry’s body language that he understood that she has to say it. They were kind of mocking the fact that it’s become a mantra. In fact they were mocking the mantra more than anything to do with being gay. Which is what Larry David and Seinfeld tend to do - mock social conventions more than anything else ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-not-that-theres-anything-wrong-with-it/738007/43 "2015-11-21T19:47:07Z")
For the characters George and Jerry, it would make sense they were afraid of being labeled gay. IIRC they were just short of being terrified at the idea. It going public that they were gay probably wouldn’t do their rather dismal dating luck any favors. And Buck Naked’s film career would have probably been ruined too. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2015, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-not-that-theres-anything-wrong-with-it/738007/44 "2015-11-21T19:50:50Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > So if I have any kind of a query that is race based I can escape the dreaded racist label by following it with “not that there’s anything wrong with that” ? And I best not preface anything related to gay people with "I’m not a homophobe, but. . . ".? I think what everyone really means is that it’s never okay to comment or raise questions on anything remotely race related. Not to get too serious, it was just a 20 year old sitcom joke, but political correctness run a muck is the core of the problem. The word ‘racist’ used to be just an adjective that could vary greatly in terms of context. Now ‘racist’ is always only a noun, a person who is absolutely a 100% evil neo-Nazi Klan member. Now you have to say something much longer like, “That has a racial element to it” etc. And the exact same thing applies to the term homophobe or homophobic. All straight guys are a little homophobic. If they say they’re not they’re either lying or cowing down to the PC police. But homophobic doesn’t mean gay-bashing, it means exactly what it means: Afraid of and uncomfortable about homosexuality to _some_ degree. Straight men’s brains are simply hard-wired for that and just pretending that they’re not doesn’t help things. It actually makes things worse. Because in a modern, Western, civilized society men are also most often \*\*\*not \*\*\*taught to automatically respond to this feeling with violence or even real prejudice. But that’s not enough now, you must say you don’t even \*have \*the slightest homophobic feelings at all, even if everyone knows they’re lying. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-not-that-theres-anything-wrong-with-it/738007/45 "2015-11-24T01:07:39Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > I assumed the humor was because Jerry and George were absolutely HORRIFIED at being thought of as gay (didn’t it put George’s mom in the hospital just like when she caught him masturbating?), but then they always said “Not that there’s anything wrong with that!”. It was like they felt like there very much **was** something wrong with that for themselves, but then they would quickly add that they didn’t think it was bad for anybody else. And would sometimes follow up with a bit more elaboration (along the lines of “It’s fine if that’s who you are! People’s personal sexual preferences are nobody’s business but their own!” or whatever). > > It was a lot less eye-rolling than the episode “The Beard” that aired two years later. (That’s the episode where Elaine tried to “convert” her gay friend … I think his name was Robert? … after developing a crush on him after pretending to be his girlfriend because his boss was thought to be stuffy and conservative and homophobic [even though it later seemed like the boss and his wife had always just assumed Robert was gay and were actually shocked and skeptical that he supposedly had a girlfriend], but his conversion to heterosexuality didn’t last long because Elaine wasn’t as good as men when it came to sex, since she didn’t have as much practice with a penis.) Heck, even back when the episode first aired, when I was a devoutly religious teenager, I didn’t think it was very plausible that gay men were only gay because men were better at penis stimulation than women. > > ETA: Ninja’d by **Tim R. Mortiss** , at least for the part about assuming where the humor in the “Not that there’s anything WRONG with that!” phrase came from. Does that one make your eyes roll less or more than when George was convinced he was why Susan turned gay, then Kramer turned her lover, who’d never been with a man, straight? Obviously whatever George did to Susan didn’t take, as she later got back together with him. Not that there’s anything wrong with that so long as you don’t cheap out on the envelopes. Not that there’s anything wrong with cheaping out, so long as the envelopes aren’t poison. Not that there’s anything wrong with poison so long as you’re using it for pest control or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-not-that-theres-anything-wrong-with-it/738007/46 "2015-11-24T03:41:27Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > And the exact same thing applies to the term homophobe or homophobic. All straight guys are a little homophobic. If they say they’re not they’re either lying or cowing down to the PC police. But homophobic doesn’t mean gay-bashing, it means exactly what it means: Afraid of and uncomfortable about homosexuality to _some_ degree. Straight men’s brains are simply hard-wired for that and just pretending that they’re not doesn’t help things. It actually makes things worse. Because in a modern, Western, civilized society men are also most often \*\*\*not \*\*\*taught to automatically respond to this feeling with violence or even real prejudice. But that’s not enough now, you must say you don’t even \*have \*the slightest homophobic feelings at all, even if everyone knows they’re lying. That’s complete crap. It sounds like you are describing yourself and assuming that all straight men are the same as you. We’re not. I am enthusiastically straight and have zero interest in dick (other than my own), but I am completely comfortable with gay men, and have some very close friends who are gay. One of my dearest friends is a transman who identifies as a gay male. I have no problem in saying that I love that guy, in a completely non-sexual way. If you’re assuming that means I’m secretly gay, that says a lot about you but nothing about me. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-not-that-theres-anything-wrong-with-it/738007/47 "2015-11-24T05:22:55Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > That’s complete crap. It sounds like you are describing yourself and assuming that all straight men are the same as you. We’re not. I am enthusiastically straight and have zero interest in dick (other than my own), but I am completely comfortable with gay men, and have some very close friends who are gay. One of my dearest friends is a transman who identifies as a gay male. I have no problem in saying that I love that guy, in a completely non-sexual way. If you’re assuming that means I’m secretly gay, that says a lot about you but nothing about me. Yeah know, you’ve just proven my point. _ **‘Secretly gay’?!?** _ Where the hell did I even remotely imply that? You’re indeed ‘cowing down to the PC police’ in that you believe if anyone admits to having even the slightest uncomfortableness towards gay people they are either secretly gay or a closet bigot. There is miles of room in between… ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-not-that-theres-anything-wrong-with-it/738007/48 "2015-11-24T05:44:57Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > Yeah know, you’ve just proven my point. _ **‘Secretly gay’?!?** _ Where the hell did I even remotely imply that? You’re indeed ‘cowing down to the PC police’ in that you believe if anyone admits to having even the slightest uncomfortableness towards gay people they are either secretly gay or a closet bigot. There is miles of room in between… No, you called me a homophobe. You said “All straight guys are a little homophobic”. I am not, not in the least. You are wrong. And I don’t give a fuck about whatever you imagine to be “the PC police” either; I’m very far from politically correct. I simply do not have any negative feelings about gay people. If you’d said “everyone is at least a tiny bit racist” I wouldn’t have a problem with that, but I _do_ have a problem with your notion that I am a little bit homophobic. I’m really not, and if you are, that’s YOU, it _isn’t_ everyone. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-not-that-theres-anything-wrong-with-it/738007/49 "2015-11-24T13:12:45Z")
I don’t want to speak for **Hail Ants** , but I took his comment about everyone being a little homophobic more as, not fear or hatred or anything, but more that homosexuality is something that straight people don’t understand / relate to 100%. I too have several gay acquaintances - hell, for some reason it seems all the places I tend to hang out are owned and mainly frequented by gay people- and I wouldn’t say I’m in any way _uncomfortable_ around anyone, but there is an element of their lives that I have never and will never experience. Sort of like when I look at married people with children. I don’t dislike them or their situation, nor is it something I want for myself. Is that really such a terrible thing? Sorry if I’m not making myself clear, I just get tired of everybody around here falling all over themselves to appear the most open minded, neighbor loving, all accepting, beings of light(not directed at you, **Shakester** , I just mean in general). ---
**Author:** ![Anamorphic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/anamorphic/32/3057_2.png) [@Anamorphic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anamorphic)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-not-that-theres-anything-wrong-with-it/738007/50 "2015-11-24T17:14:36Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > I don’t want to speak for **Hail Ants** , but I took his comment about everyone being a little homophobic more as, not fear or hatred or anything, but more that homosexuality is something that straight people don’t understand / relate to 100%. I too have several gay acquaintances - hell, for some reason it seems all the places I tend to hang out are owned and mainly frequented by gay people- and I wouldn’t say I’m in any way _uncomfortable_ around anyone, but there is an element of their lives that I have never and will never experience. Sort of like when I look at married people with children. I don’t dislike them or their situation, nor is it something I want for myself. Is that really such a terrible thing? Sorry if I’m not making myself clear, I just get tired of everybody around here falling all over themselves to appear the most open minded, neighbor loving, all accepting, beings of light(not directed at you, **Shakester** , I just mean in general). It sounds like you’re trying to define “homophobic” as “not being homosexual”. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-not-that-theres-anything-wrong-with-it/738007/51 "2015-11-24T23:30:00Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > I don’t want to speak for **Hail Ants** , but I took his comment about everyone being a little homophobic more as, not fear or hatred or anything, but more that homosexuality is something that straight people don’t understand / relate to 100%. I too have several gay acquaintances - hell, for some reason it seems all the places I tend to hang out are owned and mainly frequented by gay people- and I wouldn’t say I’m in any way _uncomfortable_ around anyone, but there is an element of their lives that I have never and will never experience. Sort of like when I look at married people with children. I don’t dislike them or their situation, nor is it something I want for myself. Is that really such a terrible thing? Sorry if I’m not making myself clear, I just get tired of everybody around here falling all over themselves to appear the most open minded, neighbor loving, all accepting, beings of light(not directed at you, **Shakester** , I just mean in general). Yes, this is exactly what I’m saying. > [@Anamorphic](#): > > It sounds like you’re trying to define “homophobic” as “not being homosexual”. Unless you’re gay or bi, it is 100% normal to be a little homophobic. But as I stated earlier the terms ‘homophobe’ and ‘racist’ have been hijacked into being 100% absolutely negatively charged language. No one can say or discuss homophobic or racist issues without being considered ‘ **a** homophobe’ or ‘ **a** racist’, and that’s nonsense. Let me do the mods a favor and say we’re passing the limits of Cafe Society here. I’ve made my point and don’t really want to bother continuing in either GD or IMHO, so back to the Seinfeld episode… ---
**Author:** ![Anamorphic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/anamorphic/32/3057_2.png) [@Anamorphic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anamorphic)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-not-that-theres-anything-wrong-with-it/738007/52 "2015-11-24T23:52:37Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > Unless you’re gay or bi, it is 100% normal to be a little homophobic. Horseshit. It absolutely is not. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-not-that-theres-anything-wrong-with-it/738007/53 "2015-11-25T02:05:25Z")
Yep, the gag is reflective, based upon how Jerry and George are intellectually and culturally aboard there being nothing wrong with it, but at the same time viscerally wanting to make clear they are not – and at how their usual self-centered attitude led them to troll the journalist w/o realizing their act may be taken at face value and now they have to walk it back, again, wanting to still look good. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-not-that-theres-anything-wrong-with-it/738007.md?page=2)