# Seinfeld says pilots and finales are usually the two worst shows - any exceptions? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 3, 2007, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-says-pilots-and-finales-are-usually-the-two-worst-shows-any-exceptions/425082 "2007-11-03T02:33:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Hometownboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5e9695/32.png) [@Hometownboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hometownboy)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2007, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-says-pilots-and-finales-are-usually-the-two-worst-shows-any-exceptions/425082/1 "2007-11-03T02:33:00Z")
In an interview in the Nov. 9 Entertainment Weekly, Jerry Seinfeld says “Writing a movie is like doing the pilot episode and series finale all in one. And those are usually the two worst episodes of a TV show.” Well, he should know. I have no idea what the Seinfeld pilot looked like, and I didn’t watch the finale, but the general opinion is that it sucked boulders, My initial impulse was to agree with him, but there have been some decent pilot episodes (Lost was one for me) and some decent finales (M_A_S\*H, for one) What do you think. Is he right? Are there exceptions, and what are they? ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2007, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-says-pilots-and-finales-are-usually-the-two-worst-shows-any-exceptions/425082/2 "2007-11-03T02:40:07Z")
I thought the “Roseanne” finale was one of the better episodes of the series. Ditto “The Wonder Years.” The “House” pilot didn’t suck–unless you count sucking me into watching the series. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Spatial\_Rift\_47](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a8b319/32.png) [@Spatial\_Rift\_47](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spatial_Rift_47)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2007, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-says-pilots-and-finales-are-usually-the-two-worst-shows-any-exceptions/425082/3 "2007-11-03T02:42:00Z")
Star Trek offers two exceptions off the top of my head. The original series pilot (both of them) were groundbreaking television, and while the “finale” wasn’t fantastic (it wasn’t intended as a final episode) it was leagues better than what is almost universally agreed upon as the worst episode of the show: “Spock’s Brain,” which happened squarely in the middle. Similarly, The Next Generation pilot was well written and intriguing, plus we were introduced to Q, and the finale had much of the pilot’s charm. The worst episode, at least in my opinion, was the second season finale, “Shades of Grey,” which was a clip show. Oh, and I have to give the obligatory mention of the final episode of St. Elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2007, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-says-pilots-and-finales-are-usually-the-two-worst-shows-any-exceptions/425082/4 "2007-11-03T02:43:32Z")
Newhart final epidsode. ---
**Author:** ![pinkfreud](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pinkfreud/32/17603_2.png) [@pinkfreud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkfreud)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2007, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-says-pilots-and-finales-are-usually-the-two-worst-shows-any-exceptions/425082/5 "2007-11-03T02:44:34Z")
Dunno about pilots, but there have been many great series finales. Just to name a few (in no particular order): _The Prisoner, Six Feet Under, Newhart, Star Trek: the Next Generation, Stargate: SG-1, Third Watch, The Fugitive, Barney Miller, The Wonder Years, The Mary Tyler Moore Show_. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2007, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-says-pilots-and-finales-are-usually-the-two-worst-shows-any-exceptions/425082/6 "2007-11-03T05:44:46Z")
I agree about the _Star Trek: The Next Generation_ finale being pretty damned good. The same is true of both the pilot and the finale of _ST: DS9_, and the finale of _ST:VGR_, IMHO. Both the pilot and finale of _Hill Street Blues_ were also pretty good, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2007, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-says-pilots-and-finales-are-usually-the-two-worst-shows-any-exceptions/425082/7 "2007-11-03T05:46:25Z")
The pilot of _The Sopranos_ was surprisingly good. First season didn’t have those weird awkward moments that some shows have. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2007, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-says-pilots-and-finales-are-usually-the-two-worst-shows-any-exceptions/425082/8 "2007-11-03T05:49:33Z")
The pilot for **Twin Peaks** is still one of the greatest things ever to appear on worldwide television. ---
**Author:** ![Merkwurdigliebe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/74df32/32.png) [@Merkwurdigliebe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merkwurdigliebe)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2007, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-says-pilots-and-finales-are-usually-the-two-worst-shows-any-exceptions/425082/9 "2007-11-03T05:54:19Z")
The pilot of Seinfeld sucked balls too. The finale wasn’t terrible, I thought, but it was annoying. You’d think it would be more fitting of the series to come to a more mundane ending. Something that lets you know that the characters go on, yet it’s time to stop talking about it. Who knows? Anyway, the Seinfeld pilot was terrible. George was a Woody Allen rip-off and Jerry was just jerry, but it was all about him and George, and way too conventional a sitcom. There is a waitress who was obviously intended to play a major role, because she shared a few lines of witty banter. Kramer…Well, I dunno. He was just a weirdo. Michael Richards once said that in the beginning he played him as if he was a bit slower than the rest, which isn’t funny, but that later on he realized the way to do it was to play Kramer as being a bit ahead of the curve. So yeah, you can tell at this stage he was doing it in the less interesting way… ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2007, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-says-pilots-and-finales-are-usually-the-two-worst-shows-any-exceptions/425082/10 "2007-11-03T06:07:09Z")
The Pushing Daisies “Pie-lette” was incredible stuff - I don’t know if I’d say it’s the best episode so far, but only because _every_ episode of Pushing Daisies has been really good. Damn, that show kicks ass. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2007, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-says-pilots-and-finales-are-usually-the-two-worst-shows-any-exceptions/425082/11 "2007-11-03T06:45:51Z")
[QUOTE=Zoggie] The pilot of _The Sopranos_ was surprisingly good. First season didn’t have those weird awkward moments that some shows have. [/QUOTE] It was one of their best episodes. It’s the one where Tony has ducks in his pool. That’s about the happiest he will ever be throughout the whole series. The pilot for Firefly (Serenity not The Train Job) was good. I didn’t get to the final episode yet. The pilot and finale of Dark Angel were the best of the series. That’s probably because both of them were the only episodes directed by James Cameron. In general I think Seinfeld is right because pilots are generally made to please soulless network executives who know nothing about creating a good show. I would also say that a lot of decent comedies don’t hit the ground running. I don’t know why but shows like The Office, Seinfeld and The Simpsons took some time to become good. The West Wing’s pilot and finale both sucked. ---
**Author:** ![Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_It_s_That_Guy)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2007, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-says-pilots-and-finales-are-usually-the-two-worst-shows-any-exceptions/425082/12 "2007-11-03T06:52:52Z")
Arrested Development had a strong pilot, as did Firefly. Angel had the best finale ever. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2007, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-says-pilots-and-finales-are-usually-the-two-worst-shows-any-exceptions/425082/13 "2007-11-03T07:00:01Z")
Firefly had an excellent pilot and the finale for ST:TNG was one of the best episodes of the series. When Picard sits down at the poker table, it warms the cockles of my heart every time. But I’m not a real fan of the Firefly finale and I dislike most of the first season of ST:TNG. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2007, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-says-pilots-and-finales-are-usually-the-two-worst-shows-any-exceptions/425082/14 "2007-11-03T07:06:19Z")
_The Shield_ surely had one of the most shocking first episodes ever, in terms of establishing that Vic Mackey is willing to do _anything_ to get his way. ---
**Author:** ![Moonchild](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@Moonchild](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonchild)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2007, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-says-pilots-and-finales-are-usually-the-two-worst-shows-any-exceptions/425082/15 "2007-11-03T07:41:32Z")
The pilots of my two all-time favorite TV shows, **The White Shadow** & **Freaks and Geeks** , were both Wahsome. Neither really had finales as knuckleheads at their respective networks unceremoniously pulled the plugs on them like, “they were starting a lawnmower.” (Thank you, Elaine Benes.) ---
**Author:** ![Carnick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carnick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnick)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2007, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-says-pilots-and-finales-are-usually-the-two-worst-shows-any-exceptions/425082/16 "2007-11-03T08:56:51Z")
The first episode of Lost was their best. Six Feet Under had a very good first episode. It crammed an amazing number of characters and motivations into less than an hour. And it didn’t leave me scratching my head and struggling to remember names like Deadwood and Carnivale did. Futurama had a great season finale and a pretty good first episode. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2007, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-says-pilots-and-finales-are-usually-the-two-worst-shows-any-exceptions/425082/17 "2007-11-03T09:21:00Z")
[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir] The same is true of both the pilot and the finale of _ST: DS9_, and the finale of _ST:VGR_, IMHO. [/QUOTE] I have to disagree with you there. I found the Voyager finale to be one of the most disappointing final episodes I’d ever seen. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2007, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-says-pilots-and-finales-are-usually-the-two-worst-shows-any-exceptions/425082/18 "2007-11-03T10:18:01Z")
_American Gothic_ had an amazing first episode. Creepy, funny, captivating. Agreed that _ST:DS9_ had a great pilot/finale combo. Possibly the best example of a show that knocked both out of the ballpark. (An analogy of which Sisko would certainly approve!) British shows are probably exempt from this alleged curse, because they tend to run to shorter lifespans, but I’d say _Yes Minister_ was brilliant in both its alpha and omega episodes. (And everything in between, for that matter!) ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2007, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-says-pilots-and-finales-are-usually-the-two-worst-shows-any-exceptions/425082/19 "2007-11-03T11:58:41Z")
[QUOTE=Carnick] Six Feet Under had a very good first episode. It crammed an amazing number of characters and motivations into less than an hour. [/QUOTE] _nitpick_ The pilot ran 64 minutes. The pilot of **Happy Days** was just a perfect piece of television. The characters were fairly well-defined already. What was unclear was what was going to happen to Fonzie. Nobody could have predicted how that character would build, explode then be the first to, of course, jump the shark. A couple of bits about that pilot, especially the final scene. Richie and Fonzie are close in a real serious friend way that is rarely seen once the broader comedy kicks in a few episodes later. Arthur is not wearing a black leather jacket, he has on a lighter colored windbreaker. Apparently there was network pressure in this area. He and Richie took a test and got it back that day. Richie did well. Arthur failed it. One of the saddest moments I can remember happened at the end of that pilot. Fonzie crumples up the test and tosses it, kickstarts his bike and pulls away, telling Richie that maybe school just isn’t for him and he can get a job at the local garage. Richie picks up the balled-up test and smooths it out and pockets it. I’m sorry but at 17, that’s love for a friend. That show had me hooked right there. IMHO it is fair to say that the pilot of M_A_S\*H was a nifty little movie directed by Robert Altman. Cartooniverse ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2007, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-says-pilots-and-finales-are-usually-the-two-worst-shows-any-exceptions/425082/20 "2007-11-03T12:12:49Z")
The pilot episode of \*\*CSI Vegas \*\* was disappointing. Jim Brass was cast as a stereotypical confrontational police boss and there was hazing of a new recruit. But it soon settled down! 😃 I liked the pilot of \*\*Law and Order \*\* (‘everybody’s favourite bagman’). I think this series hit the ground running by concentrating on character rather than car chases, gun battles and stupid deadlines ('you’ve got 24 hours to solve the case before I take your badge…). The \*\*West Wing \*\* also made a fine start, though you can see one character (Mandy) who soon gets written out. Plus the President (Martin Sheen) only makes a brief appearance - but does it so well that his role gets expanded. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seinfeld-says-pilots-and-finales-are-usually-the-two-worst-shows-any-exceptions/425082.md?page=2)