# selective human breeding for looks and brains? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 10, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-human-breeding-for-looks-and-brains/599215 "2011-10-10T20:01:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-human-breeding-for-looks-and-brains/599215/21 "2011-10-11T03:13:09Z")
Swedes seem to be doing just fine in both departments! ---
**Author:** ![K364](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k364/32/5_2.png) [@K364](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K364)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-human-breeding-for-looks-and-brains/599215/22 "2011-10-11T03:15:26Z")
I think this was discussed in [Dr. Stranglove](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iesXUFOlWC0) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-human-breeding-for-looks-and-brains/599215/23 "2011-10-11T05:11:52Z")
> [@ModernPrimate](#): > > Two things: > > 1. Why would you want smarter people to be bred? If you did that, then why not smarter people again to be bred? It would get to a stage where your own kind have been killed off, and what’s left are these people with gigantic brains. > > Furthermore I believe that large sized brains are what is ruining and destroying humans and all life on planet earth. People have brains that are too big to begin with. > > 1. “beauty” is something that comes from signals one human gets from anothers image. Beauty effectively stems from health, fitness, willing to be cooperative with others. That is what beauty comes from. > > If you purposely go out of your way to select for beauty, then you are purposely creating false signals and false cues for others. Why would you want to do that? > > Please don’t argue with me on any of this, because I spend half my life thinking about this sort of thing, have really strong views and I can get pissy if people say I’m wrong. What you are effectively describing is eugenics which people need to know are wrong and disgusting. > > There is no legitimate reason to want extra brains or extra “beauty” or anything like that. Nature is is a finely balanced system, and when humans artificially try to interfere it destroys and ruins everything. I can’t say there is a single fact in that entire post. Perhaps a kernel in item #2, but the rest is nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-human-breeding-for-looks-and-brains/599215/24 "2011-10-11T10:53:31Z")
Another thing to keep in mind is that standards would have to be applied consistently for many generations in order for them to begin to have any kind of effect. Beauty, in particular, is a very fluid notion. What characteristics are judged “beautiful” seem to change very rapidly. Odds are that our great-great-grandchildren will have a very different idea of what is beautiful than we do. In evolutionary terms, the environment is changing so fast that selective pressure is insufficient to significantly alter allele frequency in the population. ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-human-breeding-for-looks-and-brains/599215/25 "2011-10-11T12:53:15Z")
just assortative mating is not enough. If you want results the single most important task would be to increase the number of babies per woman above the very low birth rate for the modern high IQ cohort. Good luck with that nowadays, what with frequent divorce and child support being awarded proportional to the father’s “imputed income”. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-human-breeding-for-looks-and-brains/599215/26 "2011-10-11T13:18:24Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > …and the ugly people are [British](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/relationships/6542263/British-people-among-worlds-ugliest-according-to-BeautifulPeople.com.html). Well, _that_ explains a few things… ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-human-breeding-for-looks-and-brains/599215/27 "2011-10-11T13:23:45Z")
IIRC, beauty is judged as much as anything by symettry - and it’s not just birth trauma - nutrition, sickness, etc. can impact development, especially if an infection strikes one spot (ear canal, eye area) during developmental years. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-human-breeding-for-looks-and-brains/599215/28 "2011-10-11T16:07:40Z")
The other problem is that unlessyou are setting up a park somewhere with a fence and you are raising humans as poodles or thoroughbreds in the park, you have to reduce the number of those breeding outside your pool. You have to persuade/force women to breed with the people you choose, and this regimen has to last centuries and stay focussed. If you have an organization which has access to a pool of women unable to object to being bred, it probably won’t take more than a few years before it strays from its primary mission to end up providing free entertaintment for the bosses of the organization, regardless of their suitability for the mission prime… Another problems is that humans (especially males) may not be selective for the characteristics you think are best. I think it was Helen Gurley Brown who famously pointed out that men have limited discrimination on the appearance of their partner “Men will schtupp mud…” ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-human-breeding-for-looks-and-brains/599215/29 "2011-10-11T16:29:10Z")
You’re probably not going to get a lot of people to sign up for this breeding program. People in today’s world aren’t generally willing to turn over the decision of who they will have sex with to someone else, given that they have the option of making those decisions on their own. This is going to be a problem in a few centuries, when most people in your breeding population are related to each other. You’re likely to end up with higher incidences of recessive genetic diseases due to [founder effect](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founder_effect). People who are both intelligent and attractive tend to do just fine finding people to have sex with on their own. What’s the advantage to _them_ of signing up for a project like this? Most of them aren’t going to be willing to severely limit their choice of potential sex partners for something as nebulous as the good of the species. We tried that in the US with laws against miscegenation. There were still mixed-race people born when those laws were in effect. > [@code\_grey](#): > > just assortative mating is not enough. If you want results the single most important task would be to increase the number of babies per woman above the very low birth rate for the modern high IQ cohort. Having and raising kids costs money. That’s one of the reasons why intelligent people tend to have fewer kids. Who’s going to pay all the costs of the additional kids? ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-human-breeding-for-looks-and-brains/599215/30 "2011-10-11T17:50:42Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > Having and raising kids costs money. That’s one of the reasons why intelligent people tend to have fewer kids. Who’s going to pay all the costs of the additional kids? And just like having a pool of women available fro the taking, having a pool of money for someone if you “qualify” for the project based on intellect or looks(subjective!!) is a recipe for corruption and derailing the project. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-human-breeding-for-looks-and-brains/599215/31 "2011-10-11T19:38:04Z")
> [@sinjin](#): > > If you haven’t seen an attractive person in Wyoming you haven’t been to Jackson or the mountains ever. Mrsin and I both noted way back in the 70’s how attractive both sexes were at the mountain. Healthy people are attractive. > > If you’re talking Rock Springs I agree. heh I LIVED in Wyoming for 5 years. I am struggling to remember an attractive woman. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-human-breeding-for-looks-and-brains/599215/32 "2011-10-11T19:54:31Z")
> [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > heh > > I LIVED in Wyoming for 5 years. I am struggling to remember an attractive woman. 😃 Most of [these (Miss Wyoming)](http://www.google.com/search?q=miss+wyoming&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=lhO&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Sp6UTpTxKPGgsQLe_vHuAQ&ved=0CEwQsAQ&biw=785&bih=469) look fine to me. Maybe you just weren’t hanging around the attractive women. Or they were avoiding you! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-human-breeding-for-looks-and-brains/599215/33 "2011-10-11T20:23:02Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Most of [these (Miss Wyoming)](http://www.google.com/search?q=miss+wyoming&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=lhO&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Sp6UTpTxKPGgsQLe_vHuAQ&ved=0CEwQsAQ&biw=785&bih=469) look fine to me. > > Maybe you just weren’t hanging around the attractive women. > Or they were avoiding you! 🙂 I posted more in joke but there is some truth behind it 😃 It was a curious thing about Wyoming that I noticed while living there. There seemed to be NO attractive women. I even had people visit me and I didn’t bring it up but then they would observe this. The teeny bopper high school kids had their fair share of attractive girls…but they seemed to disappear after reaching adulthood. After I left Wyoming I looked up the demographics of where I lived. 72% Male/28% female. That’s almost 3-1! I think what happened is that all the remotely good looking girls got the hell out of there young and all the boys stuck around. The girls that stayed had no incentive to keep up appearances since they had plenty of guys around. That’s my theory and I’m stickin to it 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-human-breeding-for-looks-and-brains/599215/34 "2011-10-11T20:42:11Z")
> [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > After I left Wyoming I looked up the demographics of where I lived. 72% Male/28% female. That’s almost 3-1! I think what happened is that all the remotely good looking girls got the hell out of there young and all the boys stuck around. The girls that stayed had no incentive to keep up appearances since they had plenty of guys around. > > That’s my theory and I’m stickin to it 🙂 So that’s why all them Brokeback cowboys in Wyoming turned gay! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-human-breeding-for-looks-and-brains/599215/35 "2011-10-11T21:57:46Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > And just like having a pool of women available fro the taking, having a pool of money for someone if you “qualify” for the project based on intellect or looks(subjective!!) is a recipe for corruption and derailing the project. I think the best qualified person to manage this project would be an immortal who can’t be corrupted by money or sex. Um… good luck with that. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-human-breeding-for-looks-and-brains/599215/36 "2011-10-11T22:40:04Z")
Good looking people who only breed with other good-looking people don’t necessarily produce even better looking people. (Cite: Jamie Lee Curtis.) This is a response to whoever suggested that nice-looking people meet up in LA and produce even nicer-looking people, i.e., Suri Cruise. But not always. ---
**Author:** ![SeldomSeen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ba0ec/32.png) [@SeldomSeen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeldomSeen)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-human-breeding-for-looks-and-brains/599215/37 "2011-10-11T22:53:16Z")
Strictly in the interests of science, I hereby offer my smart good-looking self for research purposes. Now somebody go find me a smart, good-looking female research assistant or three… SS ---
**Author:** ![ModernPrimate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85e7bf/32.png) [@ModernPrimate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ModernPrimate)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-human-breeding-for-looks-and-brains/599215/38 "2011-10-12T01:20:59Z")
> [@SeldomSeen](#): > > Strictly in the interests of science, I hereby offer my smart good-looking self for research purposes. Now somebody go find me a smart, good-looking female research assistant or three… > SS I’m afraid that study would be impossible. You’d have to also copulate with said smart, hot research assistants which would of course we couldn’t ask you to do, even for the noble purposes of research. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-human-breeding-for-looks-and-brains/599215/39 "2011-10-12T03:04:10Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > Good looking people who only breed with other good-looking people don’t necessarily produce even better looking people. (Cite: Jamie Lee Curtis.). I think my example of Rumer Willis is a better one; she looks freaky and I wouldn’t screw her with a rented dick. Both of her parents are widely considered attractive though. Jamie Lee Curtis is attractive, and was more so when younger; she may not be the sum of the attractiveness of Janet Leigh and Tony Curtis, but she’s not materially uglier than they were either. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-human-breeding-for-looks-and-brains/599215/40 "2011-10-12T14:35:09Z")
Exactly how do nose bobs, boob enhancements, bleached hair, various body tucks and nips enter the gene pool? And Intelligence /= smart. I’ve known and worked with dozens of intelligent people who have difficulty navigating daily tasks, making decisions, and interacting with other people. The old cartoon of the geek wearing the [insert college to be mocked here] T-shirt pushing on the door marked “PULL” is not just a trope. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-human-breeding-for-looks-and-brains/599215.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-human-breeding-for-looks-and-brains/599215.md?page=3)