# Selective Magnet School in Virginia moving towards a lottery system **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 6, 2020, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347 "2020-10-06T15:59:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2020, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/381 "2020-11-25T21:18:34Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > After reading the article it is clear that you did not understand it, it showed that I was correct and prominent Asian Americans do understand why your opinion is flawed and supported the measure, just as the Asians involved in the universities also think that you are wrong too. > > In any case, a lot of ignorance was there about the proposition, anyone that concludes there was no support for it is willfully ignoring how confusing the proposition was. There was plenty of support. About 43.4% supported it and 56.6% opposed it. This is the THIRD TIME that California has rejected affirmative action. When are the progressives going to be able to phrase the questions clearly enough to get Californians to vote in favor of race based preferences. Isn’t it possible that most people, even most liberals don’t actually like race based preferences. “Prominent Asians” what the fuck are those? Are they the spokesmen for all asians or something? The movement has had 25 years to 'educate" the ignorant masses about why race based discrimination is good for them. They’re not buying it. You might as well say that Californians were too ignorant to vote for trump. The ballot measure lost by a 10% margin. The margin among asians was even larger. Isn’t it possible that these academics have it wrong and race based preferences are a bad idea. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > BTW, one should notice that that article is not really a counter to what I said, Asians in academic circles that are involved in increasing diversity do understand that the people against increasing diversity are getting it wrong. So the asian academics that are in favor of increased diversity for diversity’s sake think that the asians that are not in favor of increased diversity for diversity’s sake are getting it wrong? Pfft. So? The majority of a state like California failed to vote for race based preferences despite a 25 year campaign to reinstate race based preferences and their best argument is that the voters didn’t understand what they were voting for? Isn’t it possible that California doesn’t want race based preferences? Anyhow… Created different thread if you want to discuss this further without derailing this thread too much. > [@California Prop 16 (reinstating affirmative action) fails](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-prop-16-reinstating-affirmative-action-fails/926439): > > California has rejected affirmative action as it is practiced today. California legislators tried to ride the wave of anti-trump sentiment to push through a measure repealing a constitutional amendment that prohibits the consideration of race in things like college admissions at its state schools. The state voted 65% for Biden and 55% against reinstating affirmative action. I would suggest that the popular support for affirmative action (AS IT IS PRACTICED TODAY) is not popular with the mai… ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2020, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/382 "2020-11-25T21:32:09Z")
It turns out that the law creating the governor’s schools (including TJHSST) might require some sort of objective testing. > **[Fairfax families file lawsuit over Thomas Jefferson High School admissions...](https://www.dcnewsnow.com/news/local-news/virginia/fairfax-families-file-lawsuit-over-thomas-jefferson-high-school-admissions-changes/)** > > FAIRFAX COUNTY, Va. (WDVM) — Seventeen parents have filed a lawsuit against the Fairfax County School Board and Superintendent Scott Brabrand for “illegally” changing the admissio… ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/383 "2020-11-26T00:26:00Z")
There’s some Asians cheering on the racist, quotamongering hatred of excellence that the VA education secretary is fanatically devoted to, and there’s some other Asians opposing it. Given that we can all point to “the Asians who agree with us” regardless of which side of this question we are on, it’s anyone’s guess why one would pick the racist, quotamongering hatred of excellence. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/384 "2020-11-26T01:04:19Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > There was plenty of support. About 43.4% supported it and 56.6% opposed it. > > This is the THIRD TIME that California has rejected affirmative action. And this is about the fourth time that you ignore I’m not making that argument, again race is only a factor in several items we are talking about, that is why the argument your side makes falls short because it is not much about AA, but more about diversity. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/385 "2020-11-26T01:05:57Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > So the asian academics that are in favor of increased diversity for diversity’s sake think that the asians that are not in favor of increased diversity for diversity’s sake are getting it wrong? Pfft. So? It is an important item because their expert and educated opinions also held sway when judges decided that your arguments are mostly ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/386 "2020-11-26T01:07:59Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > There’s some Asians cheering on the racist, quotamongering hatred of excellence that the VA education secretary is fanatically devoted to, and there’s some other Asians opposing it. Given that we can all point to “the Asians who agree with us” regardless of which side of this question we are on, it’s anyone’s guess why one would pick the racist, quotamongering hatred of excellence. The judges have found that that argument about quotas is imaginary, again it would be if only race was the only factor considered. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/387 "2020-11-26T01:13:18Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > It turns out that the law creating the governor’s schools (including TJHSST) might require some sort of objective testing. Turns out that your argument there does not know that a lawsuit does not equal objective testing, that will depend on what it is decided after a trial, _ **if** _ there is one. Because as it is I could also say that there is also the chance that this could be dismissed before a trial takes place. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/388 "2020-11-26T01:23:12Z")
> [@California Prop 16 (reinstating affirmative action) fails](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-prop-16-reinstating-affirmative-action-fails/926439/1): > > I would suggest that the popular support for affirmative action (AS IT IS PRACTICED TODAY) I would say the writer of the article that: Uh, yes that is why other ways are being tried to keep diversity. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/389 "2020-11-26T17:06:01Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The judges have found that that argument about quotas is imaginary, again it would be if only race was the only factor considered. What judges? What are you talking about? How is “we need to replace the admissions test with a lottery because there are too many Asians” not making decisions based solely on race? As usual, even if one can decode the attempted grammar and word usage in your posts to determine what the hell you are saying, it’s still impossible to figure out what the hell you are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/391 "2020-11-26T17:43:54Z")
We are talking **also** about the university cases like Yale, you need to remember what was discussed already. I will have to let you know also that reaching for the grammar Nazi maneuver does not lead to happy results for the ones that attempted that before. In any case, the reply was to also deal with your mistaken belief that this is about quotas (“quota mongering” as you said) educational institutions had to deal with the reality that Affirmative Action has to be followed with no quotas in place (something that was already conceded in many other cases, it should be noted that now the effort is to even get rid of what is left of AA). Many educational institutions (and the Asians in those too) do realize that diversity is still a thing to work for and that there are many myths still being pushed by the opponents of diversity. > **[Ten Myths About Affirmative Action | USF Diversity, Inclusion and Equal...](https://www.usf.edu/compliance-ethics/equal-opportunity/ten-myths-about-affirmative-action.aspx)** > > University of South Florida ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/392 "2020-11-26T18:00:34Z")
**ModNote** : **ZosterSandstorm** , keep the posts about other posts and not the poster. You’re straying across the line in this post. This is just a guidance, not a warning. Nothing on your permanent record. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/393 "2020-11-26T18:22:59Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > We are talking **also** about the university cases like Yale, you need to remember what was discussed already. > > I will have to let you know also that reaching for the grammar Nazi maneuver does not lead to happy results for the ones that attempted that before. > > In any case, the reply was to also deal with your mistaken belief that this is about quotas (“quota mongering” as you said) educational institutions had to deal with the reality that Affirmative Action has to be followed with no quotas in place (something that was already conceded in many other cases, it should be noted that now the effort is to even get rid of what is left of AA). > > Many educational institutions (and the Asians in those too) do realize that diversity is still a thing to work for and that there are many myths still being pushed by the opponents of diversity. My post about the Virginia secretary of education is about the topic of this thread, a “selective magnet school in Virginia moving towards a lottery system,” due to the repeated, open statements of the Virginia secretary of education and others that they find it unacceptable that the raceblind merit-based admissions system produces too many Asians at a particular school. You have made it clear that you think destroying the merit-based system, the achievement level that the TJ program has reached, and racial equality of opportunity are worthwhile costs to incur in order to achieve “diversity” (taking spots away from Asians who have earned them and giving them to undeserving whites). I disagree with this notion. I do not think it is a useful goal in and of itself and I certainly don’t think it is so great that it outweighs the negatives of the government implementing racial quotas and going to war on a minority group. You continuing to restate your position that “diversity” (undeserving white people taking things Asians have earned) is so great that it justifies literally any means of achieving that end is not an argument for the morality or efficacy of said position. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/394 "2020-11-26T18:32:05Z")
Some info on those fighting back against the “diversity” scam even as the cancer spreads to similar schools at other states: [The War on Asians, the Death of Meritocracy, and Assault on STEM | Bacon's Rebellion](https://www.baconsrebellion.com/wp/the-war-on-asians-the-death-of-meritocracy-and-assault-on-stem) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/395 "2020-11-26T18:33:13Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > I do not think it is a useful goal in and of itself and I certainly don’t think it is so great that it outweighs the negatives of the government implementing racial quotas and going to war on a minority group. As posted before, that is wrong. So much for being convincing. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/396 "2020-11-26T18:47:00Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > Some info on those fighting back against the “diversity” scam even as the cancer spreads to similar schools at other states: [The War on Asians, the Death of Meritocracy, and Assault on STEM | Bacon's Rebellion](https://www.baconsrebellion.com/wp/the-war-on-asians-the-death-of-meritocracy-and-assault-on-stem) The cancers are really the arguments that attempt to forget history and context, particularly ignoring that Asians were helped with AA before. > **[Opinion: On Affirmative Action, Asian Americans 'Are Not Your Wedge'](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/opinion-affirmative-action-asian-americans-are-not-your-wedge-n610596)** > > "With the Court’s historic decision...we hope affirmative action opponents will stop pitting Asian Americans against other communities of color." > In numerous surveys, large majorities of Asian Americans have supported race-conscious college admissions and rejected efforts to use Asian Americans as a wedge group against other communities of color who support affirmative action. > > Most recently, a 2016 [national poll](http://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/asian-american-voters-tip-toward-dems-headed-2016-election-study-n578821) conducted by Advancing Justice, APIAVote and [AAPIData.com](http://AAPIData.com) found 64 percent of Asian-American voters favoring programs designed to help blacks, women and other minorities access higher education. These results should not surprise, as many Asian American groups, second perhaps only to white women, have been among the greatest direct beneficiaries of a variety of affirmative action programs. Indeed, over the past 50 years, the dramatic increase in Asian American representation at elite schools such as Yale was made possible because such schools included Asian Americans in their race-conscious admissions. > > However, in recent years, the anti-affirmative action movement has attempted to co-opt Asian Americans, ignoring the historical gains our community has made as a result of affirmative action. Anti-civil rights activists like Edward Blum, the lawyer behind the Fisher litigation and several lawsuits seeking to dismantle voting rights for people of color, have openly fished for Asian-American clients to further their attacks against holistic, race-conscious admissions programs at prominent universities. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/397 "2020-11-26T18:53:21Z")
If “we should stop destroying schools in order to give spots that Asians have earned to dumber white people” is “anti-affirmative action” then sign me up for being “anti-affirmative action.” The only people playing racial wedge games here are the CRT-obsessed liberal scam artists who are pretending to care about black underrepresentation yet doing nothing about it and using it as an excuse to redistribute benefits to whites who failed tests. In addition to violating core constitutional principles of race-blindness, eliminating merit at our best STEM schools is going to have big impacts on the country in general. Our success as a world leader in science, research, education, and even national security depends on identifying and nurturing the elite minds that these programs are targeted at. Keep pretending that everyone is of equal intellectual capacity and we’ll all end up speaking Russian equally. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/398 "2020-11-26T18:59:20Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > Keep pretending that everyone is of equal intellectual capacity and we’ll all end up speaking Russian equally. Since AA is not about pretend, but that in actuality minorities are allowed in not only by taking their intellect into account but other factors, that rant is just a very ignorant opinion. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/399 "2020-11-26T19:00:48Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > Keep pretending that everyone is of equal intellectual capacity Everyone IS of equal opportunity. The problem is not everyone receives equal educational opportunity. Actually, the problem is much bigger: far too many do not receive all kinds of equal opportunity. Economic, healthcare, housing and food security, employment, safety and survival of their person. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/400 "2020-11-26T21:34:14Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > Keep pretending that everyone is of equal intellectual capacity and we’ll all end up speaking Russian equally. Chinese, surely? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2020, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/401 "2020-11-27T10:18:26Z")
@damuriajashi, did you see this? [https://hopclear.com/washington-school-district-apologizes-for-excluding-asians-as-people-of-color/](https://hopclear.com/washington-school-district-apologizes-for-excluding-asians-as-people-of-color/) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347.md?page=21)