# Selective Magnet School in Virginia moving towards a lottery system **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 6, 2020, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347 "2020-10-06T15:59:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/542 "2020-12-11T20:37:00Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > things is that even the Alt-right does agree on using that word as an insult I tend not to agree with the alt right on things. YMMV > [@GIGObuster](#): > > turning an adequate word into an insult that is really dumb in reality. I think over-wokeness is pretty dumb. > [@DemonTree](#): > > So yes, the woke white discrimination preferences only arise when the discrimination results in poverty and persistent racial disparities. And this is what leads to the notion that merit is a myth. Merit matters it’s that’s not all that matters, but it matters a great deal. We should strive towards a world where results are more dependent on merit rather than race. I agree with some on the left that white people start on second base some of them think they hit a double (and they might lean conservative) some of them realize that their parents put them there (and they might lean more liberal). But too many of the ones that realize they don’t really deserve their success think that other don’t deserve their success either. They assume that asians are similarly the beneficiaries of the sort of unfair advantage they benefit from so they feel no guilt about shoving asians off the field to make room for others. Not realizing that the whole time they are never taking their foot off of second base. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/543 "2020-12-11T20:51:45Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > I tend not to agree with the alt right on things. YMMV Except clearly this one item. Yes, one could also go through life being unaware what most on the right use as an insult. Just saying that it is also not good to ignore too that others noted before that thanks to many on the right and clueless mainstream media a word can be used to counter the very change that it referred to before. > **[How the word 'woke' was hijacked to silence people of colour](https://metro.co.uk/2020/03/27/word-woke-became-tool-silence-people-colour-12426214/)** > > Rather than highlighting racial injustice, it's now a criticism used to shut down debates. > Jonathan explains that these kinds of shifts can happen from over-use. That once a word slips into the mainstream it can fall out of favour with the marginalised groups who originally created it, as it is co-opted and misused by other groups. Jonathan adds that what has happened with the meaning of ‘woke’ comes down to the original intention of the word itself. ‘The intention of this word was for it to have a positive outcome for a minority group,’ he explains. > > ‘But when other groups feel threatened or challenged by it, they might want to subvert it in some way. And by using the enemy’s weapons, that makes it an even more powerful tool for them.’ How does this impact people of colour? The subversion of ‘woke’ is political and means the word can now be used to perpetuate the very injustices it sought to eradicate in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/544 "2020-12-11T20:53:46Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > I think destroying educational excellence in favor of a racial quota system is bad irrespective of what kind of superhero movies any person does or does not like. Just my opinion. I think we can have diverse movies without being woke. I can’t believe any straight man would object to movies like wonder woman, birds of prey, captain marvel because there are women in it. They were all pretty good movies in their own right and presented a fairly nice break from watching Captain America, Thor and Spider Man running around in skin tight crotch hugging spandex. I don’t necessarily agree with everything coming out of Brie Larson’s mouth but she’s just an actress. She’s as entitled to an opinion as anyone else. This article is stupid. Noone objected to Charlie’s angels because it had women in it. The movie was just bad. The first one was a runaway success, noone complained about the heroes being women. Thor ragnarok is not a woke movie. This is just a stupid cite that proves that proves that people in hollywood often mistake famous for important. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/545 "2020-12-11T20:54:10Z")
We really have only just glanced in this thread on the thorny question of _why_ there are racial achievement gaps on the entrance exam to TJ. One of the things that is so galling to the parents of the people whose spots will be taken away by this proposal is that Fairfax County elementary and middle schools are the ones who have clearly failed to educate black students, but they want to blame Asian parents for it instead of taking any responsibility whatsoever for fixing the feeder system. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/546 "2020-12-11T20:57:49Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Just saying that it is also not good to ignore too that others noted before that thanks to many on the right and clueless mainstream media a word can be used to counter the very change that it referred to before. I think the far left brought that change upon itself. The far right didn’t pull us into their mindset, the far left pushed us away from theirs. You keep citing opinion pieces. They are unconvincing. They add no weight to your arguments except to say that there is someone on the internet that agrees with you. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/547 "2020-12-11T21:01:16Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > This article is stupid. Noone objected to Charlie’s angels because it had women in it. The movie was just bad. The first one was a runaway success, noone complained about the heroes being women. Thor ragnarok is not a woke movie. > > This is just a stupid cite that proves that proves that people in hollywood often mistake famous for important. Missing the point. Yes, they objected, [there were critics from the right looked at feminism as one reason it failed](https://bleedingfool.com/blogs/get-woke-go-broke-why-charlies-angels-fell-to-earth/), of course that it was a bad movie is just about one thing they got right but then they lose it when they notice that Captain Marvel was a success. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/548 "2020-12-11T21:02:05Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > As Asians in academia do report and you missed, the right does care all right, just as long as Asians can be used by them in efforts to negate any clear disadvantage blacks and Hispanics have when trying to go to elite schools. And as pointed before, it is not just Asians the ones that notice the discrimination. Sure, 100% agree the right is just using Asians, but the left is busy screwing them, so what you gonna do? I read your article (through a proxy, since the cheapskates blocked it in the EU), and it was remarkably light on details. This one from the Washington Post is a bit more informative: > **[Virginia AG’s office finds elite Loudoun STEM school discriminates against...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/loudoun-naacp-stem-discrimination/2020/11/20/0e266328-2b46-11eb-92b7-6ef17b3fe3b4_story.html)** > > Loudoun County will revise admissions at the Academies of Loudoun in concert with the NAACP. Now lets look at the figures: > Investigators with the attorney general’s office further found that the discrimination starts early: Black and Hispanic students are seriously underrepresented in Loudoun’s gifted and talented programs for elementary- and middle-schoolers. In 2019, Black and Hispanic students were 2.6 percent and 6.6 percent of a gifted-and-talented initiative known as SPECTRUM, per the report, despite making up 8 percent and nearly 20 percent of the total Loudoun County student body, respectively. Black students were only 2.6% of spectrum, which is presumably feeding into this magnet school. In 2019 only 5 black students were accepted out of 283, which is 1.8% - definitely low. In 2020 they altered the writing assessment and added consideration of socioeconomic background and got 10 black students, which they describe as having little effect. But assuming the class size was similar, that’s ~3.5%, higher than the feeder program. Seems to me the admissions process is now adequately balanced, and the problem lies earlier on. Here is what students and parents said: > Statements from students and parents “included the following prevalent themes,” the report notes: “resistance from teachers in supporting student enrollment in more rigorous academic programming on the basis of race; failure to inform parents and students of opportunities for more rigorous academic programs . . . and lack of teacher support and mentorship in supporting Black/African-American students’ sense of academic identity.” Which also sounds like most of the problem is earlier on. And the NAACP is asking for several changes, some to the admission process and some to encourage black students at an earlier age. Do you think the admission process is the main issue here? ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/549 "2020-12-11T21:02:29Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > They add no weight to your arguments except to say that there is someone on the internet that agrees with you. “There are nonzero people from group X who agree with me, and this constitutes evidence for the correctness of my opinions regarding group X, but the fact that the _majority_ of people from group X don’t agree with me has no relevance whatsoever” is an untenable position, but apparently that does not stop a certain person from being 100% committed to it. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/550 "2020-12-11T21:05:43Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > You keep citing opinion pieces. They are unconvincing. They add no weight to your arguments except to say that there is someone on the internet that agrees with you. As noted that seems to be the way, assign the reverse to what others notice. The reality is that it was not an opinion what Media Matters reported about Lou Dobbs, he really became apoplectic when he declared that the NAVY was going “woke” when the reports of some inclusion efforts were mentioned. Thing is that “woke” was not being mentioned in the reports of what he NAVY was doing. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/551 "2020-12-11T21:09:18Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > “There are nonzero people from group X who agree with me, and this constitutes evidence for the correctness of my opinions regarding group X, but the fact that the _majority_ of people from group X don’t agree with me has no relevance whatsoever” is an untenable position, but apparently that does not stop a certain person from being 100% committed to it. Piffle, as I showed already that others, more knowledgeable than I’m and not anonymous, do agree with me. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/552 "2020-12-11T21:14:42Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Missing the point. Yes, they objected, [there were critics from the right looked at feminism as one reason it failed](https://bleedingfool.com/blogs/get-woke-go-broke-why-charlies-angels-fell-to-earth/), of course that it was a bad movie is just about one thing they got right but then they lose it when they notice that Captain Marvel was a success. If you want me to say those guys are assholes, I agree, those guys are assholes if the only reason they don’t like a movie is because it has women in it. It’s like that guy in American history X picking out the black jelly beans and only eating the white ones. You don’;t have to like licorice but if the reason you don’t like licorice is because its black then you are an idiot. Frankly these are people who do not deserve chocolate or coffee. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/553 "2020-12-11T21:17:40Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Piffle, as I showed already that others, more knowledgeable than I’m and not anonymous, do agree with me. Do you think the word “nonzero” is a synonym for “anonymous?” ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/554 "2020-12-11T21:23:03Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Piffle, as I showed already that others, more knowledgeable than I’m and not anonymous, do agree with me. Please just make your own arguments. You may think they are more knowledgeable than you, but then you are just admitting you don’t know what you are talking about. If you need to read their opinions to get some idea of what the issue is then that’s fine but if you are going to simply throw an unending series of internet opinions that align with your less knowledgeable opinion then we can’t have a debate. It’s just you taking pot shots at us. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/555 "2020-12-11T21:40:09Z")
Just saying, it was clear that there is a lot that is missed and then clearly opinions can be incomplete and wrong. Declaring that none from the right complained about a movie for being woke (regardless that it was a bad movie) was wrong. And it is more than just an opinion that you missed that a lot of sources and groups from the right are using the term as an insult. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/556 "2020-12-11T21:53:29Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Declaring that none from the right complained about a movie for being woke (regardless that it was a bad movie) was wrong. I totally agree. Who said that none from the right complained about a movie for being woke? > [@GIGObuster](#): > > And it is more than just an opinion that you missed that a lot of sources and groups from the right are using the term as an insult. I agree here once again. Woke is used as an insult by the right just as variations of conservative is used as an insult from the left but from my perspective there is in fact such a thing as overly woke. This over-wokeness frequently come white folks, ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/557 "2020-12-11T22:04:02Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > I totally agree. Who said that none from the right complained about a movie for being woke? The point was that there are a lot of efforts from the right that successfully demonized a word that you are missing. Just saying that when other posters do see someone grabbing a right wing shibboleth and uses it just like the right does against the left, as thought terminating clichés, that does not lead others to think that the arguments are then kosher. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/558 "2020-12-11T22:06:05Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > “There are nonzero people from group X who agree with me, and this constitutes evidence for the correctness of my opinions regarding group X, but the fact that the _majority_ of people from group X don’t agree with me has no relevance whatsoever” is an untenable position, but apparently that does not stop a certain person from being 100% committed to it. A non-zero percentage of black people voted for Trump, which I guess means Trump isn’t racist if we follow this ‘logic’… > [@damuriajashi](#): > > I agree here once again. Woke is used as an insult by the right just as variations of conservative is used as an insult from the left but from my perspective there is in fact such a thing as overly woke. This over-wokeness frequently come white folks, How would you define the overly woke? I know it when I see it, but I’m having trouble putting it into words. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2020, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/559 "2020-12-12T19:11:37Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The point was that there are a lot of efforts from the right that successfully demonized a word that you are missing. Sure. And there are plenty of attempt to demonize words and phrases from the left. You have not proven that this has affected me in any way. I have reached the position that the overly woke crowd is worthy of scorn and ridicule based on their actions and not based on what others are saying. I generally don’t scour the internet looking for the opinions of others on matters where I can reach a determination myself. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > that does not lead others to think that the arguments are then kosher. I think that’s a “you” problem and not a “me” problem I think the overly woke white people are a problem because of things I observe, not because some media outlets I don’t even watch tell me it’s a problem. I generally think that you are better off doing your own thinking rather than letting others do your thinking for you. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2020, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/560 "2020-12-12T19:12:41Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > Sure. And there are plenty of attempt to demonize words and phrases from the left. You have not proven that this has affected me in any way. No need to, your words are the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2020, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/561 "2020-12-12T20:03:09Z")
Speaking in more general terms I do give some courtesy in the past and stopped using words or phrases when pointed out that they are controversial or seen in an offensive way by others. Many times I stop myself from calling contrarians of the science of climate change as “deniers”, simply because many on the right do see themselves as just skeptics, demonizing words is a well known item with the right, and so are the sneaky ways they convince others to follow their lead, social media is well used by the right to convince others to see it their way. Speaking about opinions, I see that you are still going for the argument that experienced or expert opinion is not as valid as an opinion in an anonymous message board. What you miss is that I do agree with the more educated opinions. Your mistake is to think that just because a linguistic professor reported on what was happening with the evolution of how a word was used the opinion can be dismissed just because a writer in an opinion piece quoted the expert. Well, one can dismiss the writer alright, but it is really silly to dismiss the expert. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347.md?page=29)