# Selective Magnet School in Virginia moving towards a lottery system **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 6, 2020, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347 "2020-10-06T15:59:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/642 "2020-12-18T16:41:20Z")
You do you, man. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/643 "2020-12-18T17:28:55Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The phrase “without commenting on” was one I used deliberately. I don’t have a strong opinion on this specific case, and if you believe I have, in other threads, defended one side or another, you’re mistaken. I understood your comment as dismissing one side of the issue (the one DA supports) and reacted accordingly. I’m happy to find out I was wrong. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Make allowances for the possibility that those that disagree with you are doing so from a position of principle and a desire for justice, even if they reach different conclusions from yours. If only everyone followed this rule! Imagine how much better politics would be. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/644 "2020-12-18T17:56:51Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > I recall another recent incident in Virginia where we were told to look at a conflict between “people advocating racism” and “people opposed to racism” and instructed to believe that there were “very fine people on both sides.” No thanks. Today I earned that “historically marginalized and economically deficient minorities are underrepresented at the top school in the state; we should fix this” is equivalent to “Jews will not replace us”… ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/645 "2020-12-18T17:57:59Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > “historically marginalized and economically deficient minorities Today I learned that white people who live in the richest county in America are a ““historically marginalized and economically deficient minority.” ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/646 "2020-12-18T18:00:59Z")
Since they’re not the ones this policy is trying to help, all I’ve really learned is that you lack reading comprehension. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/647 "2020-12-18T18:03:46Z")
You must be new to the discussion. The entire problem is the mass exchange of qualified Asian applicants for whites who can’t pass the test. The school will go from majority “Asians who can pass the test” to majority “whites who can’t pass the test” overnight. If they had just added 20 seats to every admitted class and reserved them for the 20 top-scoring black students on the admissions exam, absolutely nobody would care. In theory there should be no role for race in admissions at all but there are certain costs of doing business in American society and that sort of narrowly tailored AA that doesn’t jeopardize opportunities for everyone else isn’t worth getting upset about. That and many other ways to help black representation were proposed. But they had to blow up the entire notion of merit admissions because this is about screwing the Asians and selling the plan to whites who can’t cut it on merit. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/648 "2020-12-18T18:04:40Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > But they had to blow up the entire notion of merit admissions because this is about screwing the Asians and selling the plan to whites who can’t cut it on merit. No, it isn’t. Do you have any evidence for this whatsoever? ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/649 "2020-12-18T18:05:17Z")
Everything that the VA education secretary and Fairfax school board have said and done for the past six months. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/650 "2020-12-18T18:06:45Z")
So it should be easy to find a cite where one of these people says “this program is not intended to help minority children. We are trying to help white kids at the expense of Asian kids”. You could literally cite anything at all that came out of their mouth in the last six months to prove your case, according to you. So… go right ahead. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/651 "2020-12-18T18:12:59Z")
I’m not going to re-enact the entire thread for you because you don’t feel like reading it. Start with post 633 if you want something from today. If you still want to play this game start back at post 1 and try to take notes so you don’t forget. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/652 "2020-12-18T18:15:12Z")
Got it, you got nothing. Cool, thanks. Not sure how to check post 633 in a 528 response thread so ya know. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/653 "2020-12-18T18:21:56Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Not sure how to check post 633 in a 528 response thread so ya know. ? Your post is #652 ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/654 "2020-12-18T18:23:09Z")
OH! I see what’s going on. Some Discourse weirdness - I know how to fix it. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/655 "2020-12-18T18:28:28Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Today I earned that “historically marginalized and economically deficient minorities are underrepresented at the top school in the state; we should fix this” is equivalent to “Jews will not replace us”… Not that I agree with what ZosterSandstorm is claiming, but whites are also significantly underrepresented at the school, and the methods chosen to fix the problem are almost certain to also increase white admissions at the expense of Asian. This isn’t the sort of affirmative action I ever expected progressives to support. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/656 "2020-12-18T18:35:47Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > That’s about it for the school, unless they can get enough teacher buy-in to maintain existing standards for coursework even if that means failing out the 95% of admitted students who don’t belong there until the school board relents. I doubt that will happen. As other schools showed, the world does not end. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/657 "2020-12-18T18:43:36Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > So you are saying that Fairfax school board member and chairwoman Ricardy Anderson did not go to an anti-TJ rally on October 4, 2020, stand in front of a sign listing the percentages of the TJ student body by race, and give a speech accusing Asian parents of “pay to play” and calling for TJ to have “demographics reflective of our schools”? I certainly don’t deny that happened - I’m sure it did. Do you have a transcript that shows the context of these comments? My expectation is that when they’re concerned about the “demographics not being reflective” of the community they are concerned about the miniscule proportion of black and hispanic students rather than any kind of hatred of Asians. > [@](#): > > You are saying that fellow Fairfax school board member Karen Keys-Gamarra did not speak at the same rally in front of the same sign and explain that the initiative is about racial “equity?” I dont know - do you have a transcript of what she said? Is her issue that Asians are overrepresented, or that black and hispanic kids are underrepresented? > [@](#): > > Fairfax county teacher Matt Levi didn’t go online to call the black and Asian parents leading the pro-TJ group “motherfuckers,” echoing VA education secretary Atif Qarni’s labeling them “white supremacists,” and “a hate group” on his Twitter accounts on November 14, 2020, that he maintains during instructional time and is followed by the anti-TJ faction of the school board? Calling people who disagree with you “motherfuckers” is certainly inappropriate, especially in a professional context. I don’t see how this is evidence of anti-Asian racism though. > [@](#): > > Another Fairfax teacher, Patricia Heining, didn’t deliver a speech to the Virginia Senate on January 25, 2018 about “certain communities” that are “ravenous” and need to be opposed “however they come here”? That sounds like an offensive speech regardless of who she was talking about. Do you have a transcript that shows the context of these quotes? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/658 "2020-12-18T18:44:30Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > The pools for both the lottery and the racial quota review will be skewed somewhat away from the overall demographics of the county because a disproportionate number of Asians will want to apply in the first place, so they will really be reaching to fill those diverse and holistic spots. If we assume that “the best 100-200 students who miss the cut on a testing system” might be just as capable of succeeding as TJ and set the bar for the point where either the curriculum must be noticeably watered down or mass failure of 9th graders will occur at, say, admitting a student who is 20% or more deep into the applicant pool from the merit cutoff, then we should expect anywhere from 5% in the worst case to maybe 30% in the best case of the students admitted under the new plan to be capable of keeping up with TJ as it currently is (it would be 5% if everyone who meets the 3.5 GPA cutoff applies, but we don’t know that this will happen, and I’d say at most 1/3 of those students will decline to apply). I’m not sure I follow your maths here. How many apply currently and how many get in, and are you assuming the applicant pool will be significantly bigger? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/659 "2020-12-18T18:48:00Z")
Also, admissions are based on performance on a test by middle schoolers. Sorry, but that has WAY more to do with your parents and how able and willing they are to invest time and money in tutoring you for this test than any kind of objective measure of ability or intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/660 "2020-12-18T18:59:30Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Not that I agree with what ZosterSandstorm is claiming, but whites are also significantly underrepresented at the school, and the methods chosen to fix the problem are almost certain to also increase white admissions at the expense of Asian. This isn’t the sort of affirmative action I ever expected progressives to support. This shows that you miss the point of affirmative action, as demographics show, there will a moment where minorities will become majorities in the USA. > **[The US will become 'minority white' in 2045, Census projects | Brookings](https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-us-will-become-minority-white-in-2045-census-projects/)** > > Demographer William Frey discusses why youthful minorities are the engine of future growth. Not wanting AA to eventually benefit whites in a world that changes like that, can give us the spectacle of minority groups that are gaining power, with elites from a former minority that could choose [to feed the wrong wolf.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Wolves) Now that the tables are turning, one has to remain fair, to not let even Hispanic groups like the ones I belong to, to fall for extremists that some day could say: “We have ours, and forget them”. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/661 "2020-12-18T19:39:16Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I certainly don’t deny that happened - I’m sure it did. Do you have a transcript that shows the context of these comments? My expectation is that when they’re concerned about the “demographics not being reflective” of the community they are concerned about the miniscule proportion of black and hispanic students rather than any kind of hatred of Asians. > [@Babale](#): > > I dont know - do you have a transcript of what she said? Is her issue that Asians are overrepresented, or that black and hispanic kids are underrepresented? A large part of the reason that black and Hispanic kids are so underrepresented is that Asians are overrepresented at the school. But affirmative action is intended to counteract racism, and it seems rather unlikely that this situation of a minority dominating magnet school admissions is the result of racism favouring them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347.md?page=34)