# Selective Magnet School in Virginia moving towards a lottery system **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 6, 2020, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347 "2020-10-06T15:59:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/682 "2020-12-19T16:15:15Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > Finally, _even if_ your worst-case scenario were true - that the test has no meaning besides finding out which families are willing to pay for prepping and taking the test - this would still be a very rough filter for “valuing education” and would STILL be a better way to select students than race-balancing. Absolutely, if your goal is to have your school look great on paper. Not so much, if your goal is to help improve your community as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/683 "2020-12-19T16:17:07Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > TJ’s outcomes are evidence that if you find parents who are willing to ride their kids’ asses until they excell on the entrance exam, they will continue riding those kids all the way to college. But those kids would have done fantastically anywhere. There is no “anywhere” that is teaching courses in [Bionanotechnology](https://tjhsst.fcps.edu/academics/science-and-technology) to high schoolers. The whole point of programs like TJ is to meet the needs of a super-capable group of students. Just like students with disabilities or those who don’t speak English deserve to have their needs met, so do high achievers. If your position is that programs like TJ shouldn’t exist then why do you think it should continue to exist but with a radically overhauled admissions process? ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/684 "2020-12-19T16:19:32Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Absolutely, if your goal is to have your school look great on paper. Not so much, if your goal is to help improve your community as a whole. I would posit that identifying and cultivating the best minds in all fields, particularly math and science, has obvious benefits for all “communities as a whole” up to and including the economy and defense of the United States and the standard of living of the entire world. The odds are that the solution to e.g. climate change or water scarcity is going to come from someone who went to a TJ-like school. But this is not the primary purpose of the school’s existence. Schools exist to meet the educational needs of students. The students capable of succeeding at TJ deserve to have their needs met just as much as anyone else, and do not need to justify it with good for any other “community” besides the community of “high-achieving high school students in Northern Virginia.” ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/685 "2020-12-19T16:19:48Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > If your position is that programs like TJ shouldn’t exist then why do you think it should continue to exist but with a radically overhauled admissions process? That’s not my position at all. I think programs like that are fantastic and should be available at more schools so that lots of kids can participate, not just the “super-capable” as measured by their performance on a middle school test. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/686 "2020-12-19T16:22:31Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > That’s not my position at all. I think programs like that are fantastic and should be available at more schools so that lots of kids can participate, not just the “super-capable” as measured by their performance on a middle school test. The accelerated programs at the other schools in Northern Virginia are quite good. This was gone over at length earlier in the thread. The schools that people who just miss the cutoff on the TJ test are likely to attend are of a higher quality than the best schools in many entire states. TJ isn’t for “people who are capable of handling accelerated work compared to the average high schooler.” It’s for people who are as far ahead of those people as the student taking calculus at Langley or Marshall is as ahead of the remedial math student. It’s the ultimate three-standard-deviations-to-the-right school for an area of the country with enough students to support it, and it exists because those students aren’t properly served by the “gifted program” at an ordinary or even excellent high school. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/687 "2020-12-19T16:35:41Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > But those kids would have done fantastically anywhere. They would have run out of classes anywhere. TJ allows them to take four years of math in high school, which most of them could not do at a regular FCPS high school, which only offers two years of calculus. If a child is ready for precalculus in 9th grade, I think that’s something to celebrate and something we should try to accommodate. Whether a kid was tutored or not is irrelevant. A child who meets the current minimum requirements has level-appropriate coursework available at a regular school. The typical student at TJ does not. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/688 "2020-12-19T17:18:27Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > That’s because the test fee is not the issue; the issue is testing middle school students as if this reveals some hidden truth about their potential rather than how much their parents are able and willing to pay for them to get tutored. I assumed you were exaggerating when you said this before. Please can you confirm whether you think tutoring is the difference between a gifted student who passes the test and one who doesn’t, or whether you literally think tutoring can turn an ordinary student into a gifted one? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/689 "2020-12-19T17:20:34Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Of course a lifetime of valuing education is super important. A big part of how much you value education has to do with how good your own education was. By ensuring more communities get access to high quality education, I’d like to get more people passionate about educating their kids in the next generation. Which is an argument for improving education for the majority, not just the very few exceptional enough to attend TJHSST. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/690 "2020-12-19T17:36:54Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > . The differences in culture leading to 13 years of different paths prior to sitting the test are everything, and until people are willing to have the discussion about why some families and cultures produce better educational outcomes than others without melting down then nothing is going to improve for the families and cultures on the wrong side of the equation. Isn’t this really what you all want to talk about anyway? Stuff with this school is just background. So start that thread finally and quit the foreplay. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2020, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/691 "2020-12-20T08:27:24Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > This shows that you miss the point of affirmative action, as demographics show, there will a moment where minorities will become majorities in the USA. How is the projected future date “where minorities will become majorities” the “point of affirmative action?” What does it even mean for a factual prediction to be the “point” of a normative policy? > [@](#): > > Not wanting AA to eventually benefit whites in a world that changes like that, I have no idea who if anybody does or does not want affirmative action to “benefit whites” at some hypothetical future time at which whites are a minority in the United States as a whole. Certainly the only thing anywhere close to that in this thread is the discussion of the fact that whites are a minority at Thomas Jefferson High School and some people are upset enough about that situation that they are willing to destroy the entire purpose of the school and openly discriminate against Asians to make them a majority again. As you may have noticed, I oppose those changes. > [@](#): > > can give us the spectacle of minority groups that are gaining power, with elites from a former minority that could choose [to feed the wrong wolf.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Wolves) I do not believe the issue at hand is “elites from a former minority feeding wolves” or that anyone has the first clue what that phrase means. > [@](#): > > Now that the tables are turning, one has to remain fair, to not let even Hispanic groups like the ones I belong to, to fall for extremists that some day could say: “We have ours, and forget them”. And we end with a generous serving of word salad as usual. Can anyone figure out what this post has to do with the post it’s replying to and share a clarification? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2020, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/692 "2020-12-20T08:47:05Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > And we end with a generous serving of word salad as usual. Can anyone figure out what this post has to do with the post it’s replying to and share a clarification? Sure. He’s saying that in the future white people will no longer be a majority of Americans, and as former minorities become more powerful they too will have the ability to discriminate against others who are different from them. So one day it may well happen that white people suffer discrimination in some area and need help from AA. [I do not believe that day has arrived.] And also, groups like Hispanics need to avoid the temptation to stop caring about social justice as they become more successful/powerful/assimilated. @GIGObuster can correct me if I’m wrong. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2021, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/693 "2021-01-11T18:56:11Z")
_KC v. Fairfax County School Board_ is having its first day in court today. The plaintiffs are 17 current eighth grade students suing to block the race war lottery on the dual grounds that Virginia law requires magnet schools to use an admissions exam and that the sessions at which the plan was formulated violated open meeting laws. The judge seems skeptical of some of the arguments being put forth by the school board so far. Fairfax’s main argument seems to be that they are unaware of what a “gifted school” or “Governor’s school” are and that TJ is under no legal obligation to select students for merit at all. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2021, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/694 "2021-01-11T19:02:34Z")
To repeat a theme from this thread, as it has now been argued in court: Students’ lawyer William Hurd: > “If what the school board had said was:we have 480 students…and they are for kids who have passed the test, but why don’t we add 70 for kids with hidden gifts, we wouldn’t be here.” As I have said mutiple times, if they just wanted to add X number of seats and reserve them for the highest-scoring black applicants then no one would be complaining…but this was always about screwing the Asians and destroying the school so a reasonable compromise like that was never on the table. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2021, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/695 "2021-01-11T19:29:03Z")
Judge Tran, hearing the case, was the first judge of Asian ancestry in Virginia history and is currently one of only three in the entire state. I’m sure he’s a fair jurist and his race plays no part in his rulings, but I’m guessing the Fairfax school board was not thrilled to see his name on the docket for this case. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2021, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/696 "2021-01-11T21:50:27Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Doesn’t sound like a means test to me. Stuyvesant had a lot of poor kids. There were certainly poor kids of every race but Asians were more like to be on free or reduced lunch than the average stuy student. Contrary to typical stereotypes, asians in NYC typically have the highest poverty rate. This is despite traditionally having the lowest rate of unemployment in NYC. See page 15: > **[NYCgovPovMeas2017-WEB.pdf](https://www.nyc.gov/assets/opportunity/pdf/NYCgovPovMeas2017-WEB.pdf)** > > 2.50 MB > [@Babale](#): > > By ensuring more communities get access to high quality education, I’d like to get more people passionate about educating their kids in the next generation. I think this is one of the common misconceptions driving folks to want to achieve racial balancing at places like tjhsst and stuyvesant at the expense of asians. Places like tjhsst and stuyvesant don’t really provide “higher quality” education. They have provide “highly specialized” education. The instruction of organic chemistry at stuyvesant is not of higher “quality” than plain old biology being taught at the schools in district 2 (a largely white district which is unique in NYC public education because local (white) residents get priority over students coming from other parts of the city). [quote=“DemonTree, post:668, topic:922347”] You really need to read the rest of the thread, or talk to **damuriajashi**. He seemed to think there were other (legal) options. I was convinced by his argument, but I’m not knowledgeable on the subject.[/quote] Provide preferences to poorer kids, there is no legal impediment to means testing government programs or activities. Northern virginia is not like nyc, asians are more affluent than blacks/hispanics (though they are still less affluent than whites). Tjhsst is not like stuy, only 3% of the school is on free or reduced lunch compared to 31% within fcps system. There is very little income diversity. Like most other places, poverty is color coded. but a a preference based on income or wealth would diminish the white population even more than it has already been reduced, so it doesn’t really get any political traction. I don’t know if its deliberate but when ideas are being thrown around to increase “justice” within fcps, the people in the room are mostly white (with no asians) and if your trying to promote blacks and hispanics without hurting whites, that really only leaves one group holding the bag. I see this dynamic again and again all over the country, the proposals that are suggested (usually by woke white people) to combat systemic racism never come at any significant cost to whites if asians are available to bear the burden. > **[Office of Superintendent](https://www.fcps.edu/department/superintendents-office)** > > The Office of Superintendent is responsible for the operations of FCPS. > **[School Board Members](https://www.fcps.edu/school-board/school-board-members)** > > Meet the 12 Fairfax County School Board representatives who are elected by county residents. Send a question to a school board member. [quote=“ZosterSandstorm, post:695, topic:922347, full:true”] Judge Tran, hearing the case, was the first judge of Asian ancestry in Virginia history and is currently one of only three in the entire state. I’m sure he’s a fair jurist and his race plays no part in his rulings, but I’m guessing the Fairfax school board was not thrilled to see his name on the docket for this case.[/quote] I remember when trump wanted to disqualify a hispanic judge because he didn’t think a hispanic judge could be impartial on immigration issues. I suspect that judge tran will provide injuctive relief so that fcps will have to go ahead with the shsat and by the time if gets to trial, scotus will hopefully have spoken on these racially discriminatory practices. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/697 "2021-01-12T13:16:47Z")
Welcome back. It doesn’t make sense to me to say it’s just a means test for the parents. Sure, tutoring can help, but it’s not like cheating, because better prepared for the test also means better prepared for the school. And the evidence shows it’s not picking out the richest kids, but it _is_ doing a good job of selecting those who go on to do well in education. > [@damuriajashi](#): > > I think this is one of the common misconceptions driving folks to want to achieve racial balancing at places like tjhsst and stuyvesant at the expense of asians. Places like tjhsst and stuyvesant don’t really provide “higher quality” education. They have provide “highly specialized” education. The instruction of organic chemistry at stuyvesant is not of higher “quality” than plain old biology being taught at the schools in district 2 (a largely white district which is unique in NYC public education because local (white) residents get priority over students coming from other parts of the city). There seems to be a tendency on the left to favour enforced mediocrity, or exclusively directing extra resources and help to those who are behind, rather than trying to help every child achieve their potential. This is what we see in the UK, anyway. The lottery plans, which will likely end the highly specialised nature of these schools, seem to fit into that paradigm. Not saying that that is the intention in proposing them, but evidently they don’t care if it’s the result. > [@damuriajashi](#): > > I don’t know if its deliberate but when ideas are being thrown around to increase “justice” within fcps, the people in the room are mostly white (with no asians) and if your trying to promote blacks and hispanics without hurting whites, that really only leaves one group holding the bag. I see this dynamic again and again all over the country, the proposals that are suggested (usually by woke white people) to combat systemic racism never come at any significant cost to whites if asians are available to bear the burden. I looked up pictures of the school board a while ago. Not very reflective of the student body. But when whites are such a minority it would actually be hard to increase diversity without impacting Asians. It’s the fact the plans impact them so disproportionately that makes it seem dodgy. > [@damuriajashi](#): > > I suspect that judge tran will provide injuctive relief so that fcps will have to go ahead with the shsat and by the time if gets to trial, scotus will hopefully have spoken on these racially discriminatory practices. They’ll probably cancel the exam anyway due to Covid. Either way it’s messing kids around who don’t know whether to prepare or not. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/698 "2021-01-12T17:03:09Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > They’ll probably cancel the exam anyway due to Covid. Either way it’s messing kids around who don’t know whether to prepare or not. Which is in line with the seething contempt that the teachers and administrators in Fairfax have demonstrated for these students - when they’re willing to go on record calling them invading, un-American nerds who do underhanded things like study harder to get ahead, they’re obviously willing to inconvenience them or cause some anxiety. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/699 "2021-01-12T17:17:13Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > Which is in line with the seething contempt that the teachers and administrators in Fairfax have demonstrated for these students - when they’re willing to go on record calling them invading, un-American nerds who do underhanded things like study harder to get ahead, they’re obviously willing to inconvenience them or cause some anxiety. Hanging to one opinion (and likely taken out of context) does not make all teachers to be that, drop that accusation. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/700 "2021-01-12T17:20:15Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > un-American nerds who do underhanded things like study harder to get ahead I can’t help thinking kids would work a lot harder if those who got high marks on tests were as admired as the best athletes, instead of being sneered at by their peers. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/701 "2021-01-12T17:39:14Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > It doesn’t make sense to me to say it’s just a means test for the parents. Sure, tutoring can help, but it’s not like cheating, because better prepared for the test also means better prepared for the school. And the evidence shows it’s not picking out the richest kids, but it _is_ doing a good job of selecting those who go on to do well in education. This is true in nyc where the school is largely populated by low income kids. But tjhsst only has 3% on free or reduced lunch in a school district that is 31% on free/reduced lunch. a means tested preference would diversify the school without laying the entire burden on the heads of asian kids. This is what so many find galling. Social justice that just happens to mostly help white kids exclusively at the expense of asian kids. > [@DemonTree](#): > > I looked up pictures of the school board a while ago. Not very reflective of the student body. But when whites are such a minority it would actually be hard to increase diversity without impacting Asians. It’s the fact the plans impact them so disproportionately that makes it seem dodgy. Their plan impacts asians exclusively. But it doesn’t have to. A means tested preference would disproportionately impact white kids. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347.md?page=36)