# Selective Magnet School in Virginia moving towards a lottery system **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 6, 2020, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347 "2020-10-06T15:59:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/702 "2021-01-12T17:42:48Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Hanging to one opinion (and likely taken out of context) does not make all teachers to be that, drop that accusation. So we can’t point to examples of actual anti-asian racism (there is more than one example) but you can change policy to discriminate against asians and in favor of hispanics without any evidence of anti-hispanic racism? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/703 "2021-01-12T17:53:15Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > This is true in nyc where the school is largely populated by low income kids. But tjhsst only has 3% on free or reduced lunch in a school district that is 31% on free/reduced lunch. a means tested preference would diversify the school without laying the entire burden on the heads of asian kids. This is what so many find galling. Social justice that just happens to mostly help white kids exclusively at the expense of asian kids. Fair enough. It’s pretty obvious why they didn’t consider the means tested preference in their options for TJHSST. What do you think of @Babale’s argument that eligibility for free school lunches in NYC doesn’t mean a family is really poor, and they can still afford tutoring? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/704 "2021-01-12T18:19:06Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > What do you think of @Babale’s argument that eligibility for free school lunches in NYC doesn’t mean a family is really poor, and they can still afford tutoring? “My argument” is based on the numbers of students on free or reduced lunch at the school vs statewide which shows that the school is more prosperous overall. Here are the actual numbers: > [@Babale](#): > > Considering how the percentage is 36% free and 9% reduced, compared to 51% free and 4% reduced statewide, that number doesn’t show what you think it does; in fact, it shows that Stuyvesant is much MORE prosperous than the state as a whole, as expected. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/705 "2021-01-12T18:31:04Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > “My argument” From here: > [@Babale](#): > > I don’t think that follows. Just because someone is getting reduced lunches from the government doesn’t make them so poor that they are unable to afford tutoring. Reduced price lunches in New York require the family to be under 180% above the poverty line. > > A quick Google search reveals that there is a “healthy” and competitive tutoring industry specifically catered at this particular school. I’m sorry, but at that age, that’s just a means test for the parents. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/706 "2021-01-12T19:23:47Z")
What other metric is he proposing. Eligibility for free lunch at the time (everyone is eligible now, see coronavirus) was 130% of poverty level and 185% for reduced lunch. ~$35,000 for free lunch for a family of 4 and ~ $50,000 for reduced lunch I linked data showing that asians have the highest poverty rates in nyc. If he wants to disregard that data, I can’t stop him. Some people believe that poor asians have some sort of special privilege that makes their academic achievements less deserved so they don’t feel as bad taking stuff away from asians and give it to others in the name of social justice, I can’t stop them either. If the SHSAT was a means test for parents, you would not think that asians outnumber whites 5::1 despite being the poorest demographic in the city. If you are willing to make sacrifices, most people can afford test prep. I remember my dad sometimes putting cardboard in his shoes because there were holes in the soles of his shoes. I never had a birthday party or got a birthday present or christmas present as a child. There wasn’t always enough money to pay the bills. But there was always enough money for my education. I won’t bore you with the details but my situation was not uncommon at stuyvesant. Stuy was by no means the poorest school in the city (my local high school had much more poverty) but it wasn’t anywhere close to be the richest one either. It isn’t some bastion of wealth or privilege. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/707 "2021-01-12T19:29:06Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > “My argument” is based on the numbers of students on free or reduced lunch at the school vs statewide which shows that the school is more prosperous overall. Are you under the impression that asians are wealthier than blacks in NYC? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/708 "2021-01-12T22:20:42Z")
Replying here to leave the trolls’r’us to their kvetching. > [@Trolls R Us redux \[Now the argument clinic\]](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/2368): > > That’s just ridiculous. The current test score requirement is not some perfect magical number. Advocating changing it is not necessarily racist. Maybe another number will result in a better outcome for the local population. That would also result in “correct” representation, since kids would still get there based on their own merit – it would just be a different mix. I think the new mix is slightly better than the old mix, but it could still be improved a lot. It’s not a number at all AFAIK. They just let in the kids who do best on the test. And one of the proposals was a lottery, which will obviously do a worse job at finding the best students than almost any kind of assessment. Besides, this is irrelevant to my point, which is that if you want to claim Asians are over-represented then you need to show that they have some kind of unfair advantage. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/709 "2021-01-12T22:26:32Z")
None of this points necessarily to racism for specific test scores requirements. There aren’t racist and non racist policies for test score numbers - it’s much more complicated. Maybe you prefer the old policy. But preferring the new policy is not necessarily racist. And that’s pretty much all I’m saying. There are much larger issues at play here, but I think the new policy is slightly preferable to the old one, even though they’re both flawed in different ways. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/710 "2021-01-12T22:34:11Z")
The stated goal of the new policy is to replace merit-based selection with engineering numerical racial outcomes. It moves from treating people as individuals to treating them as components of a fungible mass defined solely by race. It is the _essence_ of racism even before we get into the number of its backers whose public statements about Asian immigrants would make Denis Kearney blush. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/711 "2021-01-12T22:35:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > None of this points necessarily to racism for specific test scores requirements. There aren’t racist and non racist policies for test score numbers - it’s much more complicated. Maybe you prefer the old policy. But preferring the new policy is not necessarily racist. Yeah there are. Playing ‘let’s tinker with the admissions policy’ until you get a result that benefits the group you happen to be part of is racist. And supporting the racist policy makes it _less_ likely they’ll adopt the non-racist one in future, because they’ll have achieved their goal of increasing URM students and making their diversity numbers look better. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/712 "2021-01-12T22:36:51Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > And supporting the racist policy makes it _less_ likely they’ll adopt the non-racist one in future, because they’ll have achieved their goal of increasing URM students and making their diversity numbers look better. If there was any chance of TJ’s rigorous program surviving the influx of unqualified students that the race war lottery will create, it went out the window yesterday when the school board’s lawyer argued that TJ is not a “gifted,” “magnet,” “Governor’s,” or “selective” school and the school board’s position is that they have no idea what those terms even mean. They are trying to get around the black-letter law in Virginia that says magnet schools must use an admissions test by saying TJ’s mission is no longer that of a magnet school. It is just another high school now; the goal of destroying excellence has been achieved. In two years no one will have any reason to care about the admissions criteria because there will be no point in going there as opposed to anywhere else. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/713 "2021-01-12T22:40:06Z")
The old policy is more racist than the new one - it overwhelmingly advantages Asian kids at the expense of black and brown kids. This one is slightly better, but still highly flawed. Still a long way to go. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/714 "2021-01-12T22:41:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The current policy is more racist than the new one - it overwhelmingly advantages one group at the expense of black and brown kids. It advantages “people who are qualified to attend TJ” over “people who are not” without concern for what the racial makeup of those groups are. Maybe Fairfax County should do a better job of educating “black and brown kids” from kindergarten through 8th grade so that they can pass the objective, race-blind admissions test instead of trying to cover up their failure by race-bombing the TJ program. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/715 "2021-01-12T22:48:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The old policy is more racist than the new one - it overwhelmingly advantages Asian kids at the expense of black and brown kids. This one is slightly better, but still highly flawed. Still a long way to go. There’s no evidence that the current policy is biased in favour of Asian kids. Tests aren’t subject to unconcious bias like teacher assessments are, and the current admissions standards weren’t created by a majority-Asian school board trying to advantage their own race. Also, many Asians are brown; that’s an odd distinction you’re drawing. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/716 "2021-01-12T22:52:46Z")
I’ve never said anything about bias in the tests. The quality of the test is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/717 "2021-01-12T22:56:29Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > Are you under the impression that asians are wealthier than blacks in NYC? [If you go by household income there is definitely a gap](https://statisticalatlas.com/place/New-York/New-York/Household-Income) ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/718 "2021-01-12T22:58:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The old policy is more racist than the new one - it overwhelmingly advantages Asian kids at the expense of black and brown kids. This one is slightly better, but still highly flawed. Still a long way to go. The old “racist” policy also overwhelmingly advantaged asian kids at the expense of white kids. Your definition of racism is weird. The new policy will result in a whiter richer dumber student body. Your definition of social justice is weird. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/719 "2021-01-12T23:06:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ve never said anything about bias in the tests. The quality of the test is irrelevant. So how was the old policy racist? ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/720 "2021-01-12T23:08:29Z")
You are correct, I should have said are you under the impression that poverty rates are higher among blacks than asians. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/721 "2021-01-12T23:10:56Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > > I’ve never said anything about bias in the tests. The quality of the test is irrelevant. > > So how was the old policy racist? I’d like to know this too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347.md?page=37)