# Selective Magnet School in Virginia moving towards a lottery system **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 6, 2020, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347 "2020-10-06T15:59:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2020, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/61 "2020-10-07T18:59:27Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I don’t see how this leads to quotas of it’s a random drawing. I’m not saying it leads to quotas, it looks like it’s attempting to lower the representation of Asian students, as if there was something wrong with having a lot of Asian students. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2020, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/62 "2020-10-07T19:04:02Z")
Dallas ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2020, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/63 "2020-10-07T19:05:28Z")
I’d say it’s attempting to raise the representation of Black and Hispanic students. Or, I’d say it’s attempting to better reflect the demographics of the district. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2020, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/64 "2020-10-07T19:07:45Z")
Wouldn’t increasing the number of qualified (black and latino) applicants work better than lowering the bar? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2020, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/65 "2020-10-07T19:09:30Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I’d say it’s attempting to raise the representation of Black and Hispanic students. Or, I’d say it’s attempting to better reflect the demographics of the district. I’m not commenting on the intentions. I can see how it would look to different groups of people, and I can see how Asians might be concerned that they are facing quotas in schools. That doesn’t mean that is what is happening here. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2020, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/66 "2020-10-07T19:15:18Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Wouldn’t increasing the number of qualified (black and latino) applicants work better than lowering the bar? Sounds good. How do you accomplish that? > [@TriPolar](#): > > I’m not commenting on the intentions. You said that “it’s attempting to lower the representation of Asian students”, which seems to imply intent to me. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2020, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/67 "2020-10-07T19:15:33Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > They are not at all concerned with percentage increases, they are concerned with overall percentages. The overall percentage of whites increase at the expense of asians. How do you justify this? How do you justify the status quo, with virtually no black or Hispanic kids? I justify this change because it provides a better distribution of kids in terms of opportunity. It still allows tons and tons of Asian kids, and it doesn’t discriminate in any way at all, except by GPA. > [@](#): > > At least you seem to be recognizing that this is not a fair and equitable way to increase black/hispanic admissions. Only more fair and equitable than the status quo. Still not a perfectly fair or equitable solution. > [@](#): > > Now, if we could only get you to recognize that discrimination against asians is unacceptable. Huh? Where have I said anything contrary? And this new policy doesn’t discriminate against Asians in any way. > [@](#): > > If you want to increase black/hispanic admissions then have a set aside for kids on free-reduced lunch. Or have set asides for kids coming from title 1 schools. This would shift the burden of your social engineering from asian kids to white kids. But that is probably why it would never have the political traction that this bill has. That might be an even better solution. Feel free to argue for it. > [@](#): > > The studies done by FCPS specifically point out that asian admissions will shrink and black/hispanic/white admissions will increase. How do you justify rejecting more accomplished asians to make room for less accomplished white kids? That’s a side affect, not the goal. It’s still better than the status quo, though. With the status quo, black and Hispanic kids are underserved by this educational service. This lessens this, without underserving Asian kids. Asian kids still have plenty of access to this (and other) quality educational services in the area. > [@](#): > > Considering how dominant asian kids are in this arena, your reasoning would imply that society is actually favoring asian kids over white kids, by a lot. Why would the powers that be in virginia do this? I don’t think they do. I think there are other explanations – like the power of immigration. Immigrant kids and 1st generation kids always do better, on average, especially the further their journey. I bet Nigerian kids are heavily over-represented. It’s not superior Nigerian culture – it’s the immigration stats re: Nigerians. > [@](#): > > Why would someone with lots of close black and hispanic friends and family be upset that the most selective school in virginia has a low black/hispanic population? Academics are not the only measure of a person’s worth. > > I don’t like the racial imbalance but I do not believe that a disparity in results equal racism absent some actual evidence of racism. What brand of racism is causing the underrepresentation of hispanic students while at the same time causing overrepresentation of asian students? It’s not one thing. It’s a multitude of factors. We could talk for days (and have!) about all the things that can hold back black and Hispanic people in America. The success of immigrant kids is a different factor. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2020, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/68 "2020-10-07T19:19:20Z")
The same way they should be doing it from the get go. Start at birth with the opportunities. But here you are picking some random jumping off point to start trying to equalize equality of outcomes. This is flat out wrong. End Goal: we need more minority representation in a good high school. Process: I know, we can select by lottery people who wouldn’t normally get in by relaxing standards across the board so that more minorities (but not Asians) get in because we realize that they can’t get in on their own merit. I think I would start asking WHY they can’t get in on their own merit and work from there. Help them get in on their own merit. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2020, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/69 "2020-10-07T19:22:03Z")
Sounds great. How? Are you going to randomly assign children at birth to parents? That’s one way of doing this from the get-go, I guess. Otherwise, you’re just saying there’s a problem that has to be fixed, but providing no ideas about how to fix it. This school system seems to be saying, well, we can address the opportunity problem at least a little bit this way. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2020, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/70 "2020-10-07T19:22:13Z")
We’re working on it, by fighting long term systemic discrimination. But that’s a long term project. It doesn’t help next semester’s students. To help underserved kids now, we may need policies like this that are far from perfect, but still better than the status quo. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2020, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/71 "2020-10-07T19:23:04Z")
It has been said many times, certain cultures value education over others. Work to change the culture(s) that don’t value education. They are certainly helping opportunity for HS, by changing the outcomes of everything that came before that. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2020, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/72 "2020-10-07T19:28:57Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Work to change the culture(s) that don’t value education. Sounds great. How? I have an idea! Let’s intelligent, highly achieving kids of all cultures get into magnet schools by some sort of random drawing. That way, those kids from non-education-valuing cultures can start valuing education and passing it on to their kids! What do you think? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2020, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/73 "2020-10-07T19:40:04Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > You said that “it’s attempting to lower the representation of Asian students”, which seems to imply intent to me. > [@TriPolar](#): > > I’m not saying it leads to quotas, **it looks like** it’s attempting to lower the representation of Asian students, Bolding mine. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2020, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/74 "2020-10-07T19:48:29Z")
Ah. That’s pretty subtle, right there. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2020, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/75 "2020-10-07T20:14:50Z")
It’s what I meant. If it looked like I was assigning a motive then I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2020, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/76 "2020-10-07T20:16:14Z")
No problem! Anyway, this thread is already going in circles, so unless it gets more interesting, I’m out. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2020, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/77 "2020-10-07T20:25:06Z")
Which would be fine if it wasn’t directly disavowing minorities who got in on the before unchanged merit. It might even work! So dropping the entrance requirements is doing that (considering this school is highly intelligent, so high in fact that they had some requirements) which were unable to be reached by enough other minorities that they were disqualified. What is the acceptable failure/harm rate for this to be considered a bad move? ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2020, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/78 "2020-10-07T21:12:38Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > This is different from the kind of rules that accidentally/on purpose target minorities (the disparate impact). A random drawing of highly qualified candidates seems exceedingly fair to me. Randomness is not going to discriminate. It “accidentally” targets asians. > [@RitterSport](#): > > Merit tests are pretty imperfect, so replacing those with a more fair random system that also happens to bring in more diversity and gives opportunities to smart kids who would otherwise not have that is a step in the right direction. I guess it comes down to whether you believe merit is a real thing. If racial balancing is your primary objective then you would be correct. If having a school for the brightest kids is your objective, then you would be incorrect. Of the 3067 kids that applied to tjhsst a couple of years ago, 2687 had a gpa of 3.5 or higher. They selected 486 students students. The median GPA of admitted students was 4.0 (out of 4.0), the majority of the kids that got into TJ that year had a 4.0. 344 of the 486 kids accepted had a 4.0 GPA. 446 out of 486 had a 3.9 or higher. Only 12 kids out of 486 had a gpa below 3.75. 237 out of 363 kids in the bottom 10% on their math exams have gpas of 3.5 or higher. So yeah, a lottery for anyone with a 3.5 gpa is a pretty severe dilution of the academic talent at the school. I also suspect that a lot more kids will suddenly start getting a 3.5 gpa. > [@RitterSport](#): > > You said that “it’s attempting to lower the representation of Asian students”, which seems to imply intent to me. There is not an active intent to lower asian student population. There is an utter indifference to the effect it has on asian students. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How do you justify the status quo, with virtually no black or Hispanic kids? An objective race neutral admissions process. See, merit. > [@](#): > > I justify this change because it provides a better distribution of kids in terms of opportunity. It still allows tons and tons of Asian kids, and it doesn’t discriminate in any way at all, except by GPA. Wait. What? This is a better distribution of opportunity? So hand out opportunity randomly is better than rewarding hard work, and sacrifice because you like the melanin distribution of the winners over the losers? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Only more fair and equitable than the status quo. Still not a perfectly fair or equitable solution. How is admission targetting race more equitable than admission targetting merit? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Huh? Where have I said anything contrary? And this new policy doesn’t discriminate against Asians in any way. Supporting a scheme that intentionally reduces the population of asians because they are not a real minority (or something like that). > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That might be an even better solution. Feel free to argue for it. You’re the one that wants change, You can thank me for the idea but I’m too busy trying to prevent discrimination against asians. quote=“iiandyiiii, post:67, topic:922347”] That’s a side affect, not the goal. It’s still better than the status quo, though. With the status quo, black and Hispanic kids are underserved by this educational service. This lessens this, without underserving Asian kids. Asian kids still have plenty of access to this (and other) quality educational services in the area. [/quote] Discrimination against asians is a side effect? Are you kidding? So now discriminatory policies are ok if its only a side effect? The status quo is a meritocracy. You are saying that racial balancing is better than merit? What educational access do asian kids have that hispanic kids do not? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Immigrant kids and 1st generation kids always do better, on average, especially the further their journey. I bet Nigerian kids are heavily over-represented. It’s not superior Nigerian culture – it’s the immigration stats re: Nigerians. I think nigerians absolutely have a better culture surrounding education. but OK, lets say its immigrant status. What part of fairfax do you live in that the hispanics are not overwhelmingly immigrants? You seem to be acknowledging that the concept of merit might in fact be valid, except when it helps asians. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s not one thing. It’s a multitude of factors. We could talk for days (and have!) about all the things that can hold back black and Hispanic people in America. The success of immigrant kids is a different factor. No we can’t because I’ve asked this question a dozen times before and you never seem to have an answer. > [@Kearsen1](#): > > I think I would start asking WHY they can’t get in on their own merit and work from there. > > Help them get in on their own merit. The left has more or less given up on the notion that blacks and hispanics can achieve anything on their own. It has to be given to them. I would be pretty offended if i was them. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It doesn’t help next semester’s students. To help underserved kids now, we may need policies like this that are far from perfect, but still better than the status quo. It’s racist. > [@RitterSport](#): > > Sounds great. How? Busing, school choice, more money, and if they don’t work, then too bad. At least we tried. But racism can’t be the answer. > [@TriPolar](#): > > Bolding mine. The racism against asians is not the result of malice, it is the result of gross indifference and dehumanization. > [@Kearsen1](#): > > Which would be fine if it wasn’t directly disavowing minorities who got in on the before unchanged merit. It might even work! So dropping the entrance requirements is doing that (considering this school is highly intelligent, so high in fact that they had some requirements) which were unable to be reached by enough other minorities that they were disqualified. > > What is the acceptable failure/harm rate for this to be considered a bad move? The school will become little more than a nice charter school. We could already start one of those without destroying this one. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2020, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/79 "2020-10-07T21:25:44Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > An objective race neutral admissions process. See, merit. That also describes the new policy. > [@](#): > > Wait. What? This is a better distribution of opportunity? So hand out opportunity randomly is better than rewarding hard work, and sacrifice because you like the melanin distribution of the winners over the losers? It’s not random, except at the top. Only very good students have this opportunity. > [@](#): > > How is admission targetting race more equitable than admission targetting merit? It’s not targeting race. It is targeting merit – GPA. > [@](#): > > Supporting a scheme that intentionally reduces the population of asians because they are not a real minority (or something like that). That’s not what it does, or why it does it. It’s meant to increase black/Hispanic enrollment – a worthy goal, when it’s so low before. > [@](#): > > You’re the one that wants change, You can thank me for the idea but I’m too busy trying to prevent discrimination against asians. Luckily, you can do both! And this new policy doesn’t discriminate against Asians in any way whatsoever. > [@](#): > > Discrimination against asians is a side effect? Are you kidding? So now discriminatory policies are ok if its only a side effect? It doesn’t discriminate against Asians in any way whatsoever. > [@](#): > > The status quo is a meritocracy. So is the new policy – only top students can get in, but in a larger pool and with some randomness to reduce racial/ethnic bias. > [@](#): > > What educational access do asian kids have that hispanic kids do not? A decent likelihood of getting into this school, for one. > [@](#): > > I think nigerians absolutely have a better culture surrounding education. but OK, lets say its immigrant status. What part of fairfax do you live in that the hispanics are not overwhelmingly immigrants? You seem to be acknowledging that the concept of merit might in fact be valid, except when it helps asians. I live in Arlington, not Fairfax. But the immigration circumstances are different for most Hispanic immigrants (as we’ve discussed before) than non-Americas immigrants (i.e. African and Asian immigrants). > [@](#): > > No we can’t because I’ve asked this question a dozen times before and you never seem to have an answer. I’ve answered a dozen times before, but you don’t seem to like my answers. > [@](#): > > It’s racist. No it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2020, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347/80 "2020-10-07T22:03:56Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > Of the 3067 kids that applied to tjhsst a couple of years ago, 2687 had a gpa of 3.5 or higher. They selected 486 students students. The median GPA of admitted students was 4.0 (out of 4.0), the majority of the kids that got into TJ that year had a 4.0. 344 of the 486 kids accepted had a 4.0 GPA. 446 out of 486 had a 3.9 or higher. Only 12 kids out of 486 had a gpa below 3.75. > 237 out of 363 kids in the bottom 10% on their math exams have gpas of 3.5 or higher. > > So yeah, a lottery for anyone with a 3.5 gpa is a pretty severe dilution of the academic talent at the school. I also suspect that a lot more kids will suddenly start getting a 3.5 gpa. Your conclusion is true if and only if GPA correlates (near) perfectly with “merit” (however you are defining that term). Does it really, however, or is GPA more closely correlated with opportunity, parental income, teacher expectations, and/or other factors [not necessarily excluding your parents’ ability to intimidate teachers]? For that matter, exactly how are you defining merit? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selective-magnet-school-in-virginia-moving-towards-a-lottery-system/922347.md?page=5)