It assumes fairness in a profoundly racist society.
So to be clear, your contention is that American society is
- “Profoundly racist” in favor of Asian 13-year-olds.
- So “profoundly racist” that anything that “assumes fairness” within that society is itself racist, ipso facto, without needing any more specific evidence regarding the thing itself.
- Somehow, at the same time, NOT so profoundly racist as to affect the ability of black test-failers to keep up with the TJ curriculum, or for a government body’s repeated statements about how much they dislike Asians to be a cause for concern.
If I’ve misinterpreted something please say so.
By the way, there’s a name for the ideology that says “everything in society is designed to harm blacks as a racial group and no other explanations are possible” and “Asians have no claim on ends of their own and are either a tool used by whites to harm blacks or a tool used by blacks to harm whites.” It rhymes with “mitical space bleery.”
The kind of jiggery-pokery you support just makes the problem worse. Fair and objective measures help to reduce racism, by making it harder to favour one group over another. The fact the test is not filling the school with ‘richer, whiter and dumber’ students shows it’s working as intended, that parents can’t just buy their kids’ way into the school. It’s the rest of the education system that has the problem, and here you are trying to ‘fix’ the part that isn’t broken.
One of the major purposes of these magnet schools is to offer students who a long way ahead advanced courses so they don’t run out, and give them an environment where they can be challenged by their peers. If there are other students not getting in who would benefit, they should enlarge the school or build another one, not kick out students who are already qualified to enter.
This is one of those things equity enthusiasts have no explanation for and very determinedly ignore.
Probably because it’s full of straw men.
In a fair and objective society, yes. In a white supremacist society, what appears “fair and objective” is probably not, especially if the outcomes are so monumentally skewed against black and Hispanic kids.
The problem with trying to use this sort of reasoning to make actual policy is that the Fairfax school board and their random admissions lottery also exist in the same society. Magically it does not inherit the white supremacy of society like the test does, because you support it. When you have a formula to condemn everything then you will inevitably be turning your outrage on and off selectively as a recipe to just do whatever you want with no logical justification.
If a measure in a white supremacist society is skewed against white kids (which it is), that’s pretty good proof that it is in fact fair and objective. And if the white supremacist society proposes various replacements that all just so happen to also benefit white kids, that’s a big clue that you should be suspicious of them.
I am suspicious! The new policy is better than the old one, but only slightly. I’d be much more in favor of a policy that benefited those vastly underserved black and Hispanic kids without also benefiting wealthy white kids.
Well, time then to mention the elephant in the room, there is really nothing from preventing a minority for falling for the same ideology that whites used to keep other minorities out too. If not discriminating directly, then falling for the wedge the powerful want to keep minorities pushing too.
That is only for the casual ones, regarding strong prejudice even in this message board I do remember how a departed poster liked to link to an Asian researcher that was all in favor of scientific racism. Point being too that conservatives are nowadays falling for very unsavory ideas, and that includes also well to do Asians.
Not suspicious enough to stop supporting a racist policy. Or to try and actually improve education for all those underserved black and hispanic kids, which would help all of them and not just the minority who could hope to get into the magnet school. Better to eliminate the test, so progressives can pretend there are no problems and feel good about themselves without having to expend any money or make any sacrifices.
I am supporting the less racist policies, and I also support trying to improve education for those underserved kids.
Since this debate is mostly just straw men, I think we’re done here.
You misspelled ‘more’.
I was thinking the same, but I have one more question for you. Yesterday I wrote about a tendency I’ve noticed on the left, to only care about helping kids who are behind, rather than investing in all kids to help them achieve their potential. Presumably the thought is that those who are already ahead don’t need any help. Would you say that’s accurate?
You are basically shooting the messenger here. The so-called progressives really are screwing Asians over in the examples we’ve been discussing, and the conservatives are only guilty of trying to make use of that fact.
It’s backwards reasoning - these facts may lead to moral conclusions I don’t like, therefore we must abandon the facts. Asians are in fact fucked over by affirmative action, and Asians have in fact succeeded in the U.S. out of all proportion to their starting point as poor immigrants. Whether you object to the “model minority myth” drawn by some commentators as a result doesn’t change those facts. It’s like saying “because some people use the theory of evolution to argue for atheism or social Darwinism, evolution is false.” Doesn’t work that way.
Nothing you said denies the point made, again it might reduce the number of the ones benefiting now, the overall point is that resorting to arguments that were seen before when it was just whites that saw their numbers go down in the past, are very underwhelming arguments to use when blacks and Hispanics are shut down now.
How so?
[quote=“iiandyiiii, post:728, topic:922347”]
In a fair and objective society, yes. In a white supremacist society, what appears “fair and objective” is probably not, especially if the outcomes are so monumentally skewed against black and Hispanic kids.[/quote]
You say society is profoundly racist because it assumes fairness in a test that where 13 yeare old asians disproportionately outperform 13 year old white kids (and pretty much everyone else).
There is also a disparity between whites and urm, and a reasonable argument could be made that at least some of this disparity is attributable to racism. But that isn’t the argument. You aren’t trying to determine how much of that 20% that isn’t going to asians should go to urm instead of whites. You are taking spots from asians in order to give them to white adnd to a lesser extent urm. So how is this profound racism favoring 13 year old asians over everyone else including whites?
You are trying to achieve equality of outcome (not equality of opportunity) entirely at the expense of asian kids. Yes this would mean more black and hispanic kids but it would help white kids more than it helps either black or hispanic kids. Once again, entirely at the expense of asian kids. You don’t seem concerned about the fact that asians bear the entire burden and white kids extract the most benefit from your policy as long as black/hispanic kids get something out of it.
I notice no consideration of the impact your preferred policy has on asians in that statement.
Doesn’t that make you pause just for a second to wonder about your own biases?
Do you have an argument to make or will you just be linking to opinion pieces by journalists and high school students?
The model minority myth is a pretty clumsy bludgeon used by SJWs to try and silence asians when asian say things that SJWs don’t like. I don’t think most SJWs understand the model minority myth, they are too focused on how it makes blacks and hispanics look bad to understand that the model minority myth proves racism is prevalent in this society.
The typical conservative argument is that racism doesn’t really exist to any large extent because the success of model minorities show that hard work and family values allow model minorities to not only succeed but to excel. They point to things like the out of wedlock rate birth rate, the disparity in incarceration rates, the education rate, etc. They use these disparities to explain the disparities in outcome. They then point to the model minorities and say “see, if you only lived like them, you would have similar success” But their argument proves too much.
The hispanic out of wedlock birth rate is 52%. For whites it is 28%. For asians it is 12%. And yet whites earn more than their asian counterparts in the same city. Asians do not earn more than whites unless you start comparing asians in los angeles to whites in toledo. Why does lower the out of wedlock birth rate only seem to help whites over hispanics but not asians over whites?
The white incarceration rate is 450/100,000. The hispanic incarcerations rate is 821/100,000. The asian incarceration rate is 210/100,000. Why do lower incarceration rates cause these economic disparities between whites and hispanics but not between whites and asians?
I can go on. The model minority argument only works because the SJWs buy into their framework. SJWs actually buy into the model minority myth. How often have we heard that despite the damage done to asians, asians will still do just fine. Could we get away with saying this about any other minority? Sure these things that model minorities might make a difference but the success of model minorities does not contradict the presence of racism, it confirms it and the racism isn’t all coming from one side.
Even in this thread, we’ve heard over and over again in this thread that “black” is a proxy for “poor” and that the cost of “test prep” is somehow skewing the outcome of TJ admissions. No one has presented any numbers on how many test-passers actually pay for test prep or what they pay for it, let alone acknowledged the fact that the median black income in Fairfax is $112,000. We’re just locked into these stereotypes that have nothing to do with the reality of the specific situation because CRT demands one-size-fits-all bludgeons to hammer everything into its fanatical ideology.