# Self-appointed "Culture of Life" heroes are killers, by their own rhetoric **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 27, 2005, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-appointed-culture-of-life-heroes-are-killers-by-their-own-rhetoric/296497 "2005-03-27T21:50:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-appointed-culture-of-life-heroes-are-killers-by-their-own-rhetoric/296497/21 "2005-03-28T05:58:35Z")
Great minds, **Apos**. I must have been typing the term “absolutist rhetoric” right around the time you were posting. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-appointed-culture-of-life-heroes-are-killers-by-their-own-rhetoric/296497/22 "2005-03-28T06:35:39Z")
So, what are the culture of life leadership in congress doing now as a followup? [http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/11245895.htm](http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/11245895.htm) > [@](#): > > On Sunday, Schindlers supporter Larry Klayman, who founded the conservative group Judicial Watch, said Bush was bound by moral duty to intervene. > > Klayman urged Bush to “step up to the plate, be a man, put politics aside and do his job.” > > Schindlers supporters also announced they were heading to Washington to demand Congressional leaders enforce subpoenas to have the Schiavos and hospice workers appear before them. > > The supporters are likely to find little appetite for renewed congressional intervention. Last week, as the courts ruled against Congress, the House Government Reform Committee, which had issued the subpoenas for Terri and Michael Schiavo, quietly cancelled the hearing. The Senate postponed its own until April 6. > > A news release from the committee said the decision was made “in light of recent legal events in the state and federal courts.” A similar Senate meeting was postponed until next month. So despite all their denials, their original act was just pandering of the worse kind. In all my time here, with an exception on discussions on media bias, I have always avoided posting links to Democratic Underground, this time, “The Top 10 Conservative Idiots” feature does deserve to use that insolent term: [http://www.democraticunderground.com/top10/05/191.html](http://www.democraticunderground.com/top10/05/191.html) Special attention should be paid to the hack job CNN (idiot #7) did with a poll on Schiavo. Liberal media, my ass! ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-appointed-culture-of-life-heroes-are-killers-by-their-own-rhetoric/296497/23 "2005-03-28T08:28:16Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Well, in the end, doesn’t this come down to very subjective definitions of what constitutes “heroic” measures? > > Also, while the Schindlers are Catholics, and so are presumably (and understandably) obliged to let papal decrees have a measure of influence on their decisions, surely the same thing doesn’t apply to all the Evangelical Protestants who have weighed in on this issue. Hell, most of them are happy to beat up on the Catholic Church when it suits them. “Heroic” measures did used to have a more nearly objective definition when medical technology was, itself, more primitive. I opened my post with a declaration that I believe that their current understanding is in error. But just as I disagree with the shrill claims of “murder” emanating from the supporters of the Schindlers’ position, I disagree with the cry of “hypocrisy” arising in this thread. As to the position of American Fundamentalist Christians, I was actually unaware that the Schindlers were Catholic. I mentioned Pope Pius’s statement only to demonstrate that the principles being invoked were not recent _ad hoc_ claims and that they have a history. (It should also be noted that after many years of fulminating against the papacy, the Southern Baptists reached a modicum of rapprochement with Catholic theology in a public statement issued nearly ten years ago. I am sure that there are still many pulpits from which condemnations of the “whore of Rome” are issued, but the organizing body has been moving toward a more ecumenical position for a number of years.) > [@](#): > > If folks like Delay and Bush actually articulated a rational position . . . Well, I have never seen either of them demonstrate a capacity to articulate a rational position on any other topic, so why do you hold them to this standard on this one? > [@Apos](#): > > Then explain why any of these differences are relevant in the face of the absolutist rhetoric that was used? The treatments removed (or not chosen) for Mr. Schindler’s father and Brother Michael fell into the category previously defined as “heroic.” One can argue that medical science has moved the boundaries away from the 1950s definitions, (and I would argue the same way), but the lines that these people have followed are consistent with the beliefs they hold with their understanding of medical technology. I have no problem with criticising them for failing to keep up with the guidelines of moral theology as it comments on medical technology in 2005. I simply do not believe that it is legitimate to criticize them as hypocrites by re-writing history in a way that changes the actions they actually sanctioned while igfnoring the principles that they actually followed. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-appointed-culture-of-life-heroes-are-killers-by-their-own-rhetoric/296497/24 "2005-03-28T10:59:42Z")
I don’t agree Tomndebb. As a matter of principle, if someone does something but says others shouldn’t do that thing they are a hypocrite. And in my eyes they will remain a hypocrite until they come up with a substantial difference between what they did and what they say others shouldn’t do. Letting people off the hook of hypocrisy because they come up with a tissue paper thin nonsense distinction (even if they believe it) is letting them off too lightly in my book. Particularly when you are the one making up fine distinctions for them, while they mouth simple absolute rhetoric that covers both what they did and what they say others shouldn’t do. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-appointed-culture-of-life-heroes-are-killers-by-their-own-rhetoric/296497/25 "2005-03-28T16:54:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Letting people off the hook of hypocrisy because they come up with a tissue paper thin nonsense distinction It is not a tissue thin distinction. It is an actual issue that has been debated with some vehemence among medical ethicists and moral theologians for many years. The fact that you have chosen to lump the actions into one single category is your right, but it is an error to assert that your lumping is categorically true and to then pretend that they are manipulating their beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-appointed-culture-of-life-heroes-are-killers-by-their-own-rhetoric/296497/26 "2005-03-28T19:34:39Z")
tomndebb, you are simply ignoring the fact that the rhetoric employed by these people has not made any of these distinctions: nothing about any distinction between heroic or non-heroic. It brushed over such subtle arguments entirely. It is therefore quite appropriate to level a charge of hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-appointed-culture-of-life-heroes-are-killers-by-their-own-rhetoric/296497/27 "2005-03-28T19:48:04Z")
As long as we’re pitting moroninc vultures exploiting Terri Schiavo, can I also nominate talk-radio nutjob [Hal Turner?](http://www.halturnershow.com/) > [@Hal Turner](#): > > I advocate the use of force to rescue Terri Schiavo from being starved to death. I further advocate the killing of anyone who interferes with such rescue. [A little later…](http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:3YS0ow_qauYJ:www.halturnershow.com/+seeing+as+racial+jews+are+the+lowest+form+of+scum+in+the+history+of+this+planet+...+maybe+starving+Terri+to+death+isn%27t+too+bad+a+thing+at+all&hl=en) > [@Hal Turner](#): > > [Terri] was born a jew, but converted to Catholicism. Being born a jew makes one a racial jew no matter what religion they convert to. And seeing as racial jews are the lowest form of scum in the history of this planet, (They’ve been thrown out of more countries than any other race in history) maybe **starving Terri to death isn’t too bad a thing at all.** A nutjob _and_ a bigot! Gotta love these “traditional values”… ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-appointed-culture-of-life-heroes-are-killers-by-their-own-rhetoric/296497/28 "2005-03-28T21:11:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Hal Turner > I advocate the use of force to rescue Terri Schiavo from being starved to death. I further advocate the killing of anyone who interferes with such rescue. That’s real rich. He is calling for armed attacks and killing, in order to preserve the sanctity of life? I bet the police guarding Schiavo right now, in support of the court ruling, would have “a little something” to say about that if Turner’s Marauders show up. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-appointed-culture-of-life-heroes-are-killers-by-their-own-rhetoric/296497/29 "2005-03-28T21:48:52Z")
> [@](#): > > tomndebb, you are simply ignoring the fact that the rhetoric employed by these people has not made any of these distinctions: nothing about any distinction between heroic or non-heroic. It brushed over such subtle arguments entirely. It is therefore quite appropriate to level a charge of hypocrisy. Really? You can point to the statements made by any of the pilloried people in this thread where they equated removing a feeding tube with removing someone from a vent? The subtle arguments have been made long ago distinguishing between the removal of breathing support and the removal of food and the distinction that made it to the public consciousness over 20 years ago was that vents might be heroic but that food and water are not. They are not making subtle arguments because in their mind a bright line has already been drawn. The most that you can really accuse them of in this case is that they are (typically) playing sound bites for the people who have already accepted those arguments. I think you can make a case for claiming Bush is a hypocrite, since he signed into law the identical practice while he was governor of Texas. Delay can be criticized as general scum, but unless you have found him equating the two actions, the charge of hypocrisy is simply one that you are inventing because you dislike him. Similarly, the Schindlers can be accused (not necessarily convicted) of either being too emotionally involved or too interested in Mike Schiavo’s money, but unless you can find where they equated the removal of a vent with the removal of a feeding tube in some earlier iteration, then you are simply imposing your refusal to make a distinction on them while ignoring the fact that that in their mind the distinction was already made (correctly or incorrectly) over 20 years ago. I have not actually seen anyone on _either_ side of this debate make “subtle” arguments when the TV cameras come out. It is all sound bites. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-appointed-culture-of-life-heroes-are-killers-by-their-own-rhetoric/296497/30 "2005-03-29T00:28:21Z")
I still disagree that DeLay’s actions are not hypocritical. The line between “heroic” and “non-heroic” medical measures doesn’t matter in this instance, if deciding to remove a ventilator and deciding to remove a feeding tube are both the prerogative of the next of kin. 16 years ago, DeLay and his family weighed the likelihood of his injured father’s recovery and chose to end life-sustaining medical treatment, as was their legal right. I suspect that if someone who didn’t know the particulars of the case had wanted to stick their nose in the DeLay family’s business, they could have found some quack who would say his father had a chance of coming out of his coma, and taken the issue to Congress to argue that life-sustaining treatment must continue. Obviously, nobody did. Last week he insisted that Terri is lucid (proving that he either didn’t have a clue about the particulars of the case, or didn’t care) and that Michael Schiavo, who has also weighed the likelihood of his wife’s recovery and has chosen to end life-sustaining medical treatment, should not have the right to do so, despite his legal right and despite the court ruling that her life-sustaining medical treatment should be allowed to end. DeLay and his family did not “err on the side of life.” He is now insisting that those treating Terri must “err on the side of life.” His past actions do not match his current rhetoric. When you say he’s not a hypocrite because in his mind, there’s a sharp difference between removing a ventilator and removing a feeding tube, you’re arguing that he’s not a hypocrite because he doesn’t believe he is a hypocrite. I don’t think that’s how it works. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-appointed-culture-of-life-heroes-are-killers-by-their-own-rhetoric/296497/31 "2005-03-29T00:57:03Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Really? You can point to the statements made by any of the pilloried people in this thread where they equated removing a feeding tube with removing someone from a vent? That’s not the point. The point is they have made blanket statements about sanctity of life. They haven’t said “except if it’s removing a vent, then it’s OK”. > [@](#): > > The subtle arguments have been made long ago distinguishing between the removal of breathing support and the removal of food and the distinction that made it to the public consciousness over 20 years ago was that vents might be heroic but that food and water are not. They are not making subtle arguments because in their mind a bright line has already been drawn. The most that you can really accuse them of in this case is that they are (typically) playing sound bites for the people who have already accepted those arguments. Crap. They are not making subtle arguments because they wouldn’t be as effective (albeit that making subtle arguments might allow them to avoid being hypocrites). “TF has an absolute right to life” and “MF is a murderer” “TF has a right to life because we can keep her alive with a feeding tube, though if we could only keep her alive with a vent then she wouldn’t have a right to life” and “MF is a murderer because he wants to withdraw assisted feeding, although if he wanted to withdraw assisted breathing he wouldn’t be”. Not quite as punchy, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-appointed-culture-of-life-heroes-are-killers-by-their-own-rhetoric/296497/32 "2005-03-29T03:35:29Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Really? You can point to the statements made by any of the pilloried people in this thread where they equated removing a feeding tube with removing someone from a vent? There is no need to, because their rhetoric has never made such fine or specific distinctions, and that’s exactly the point. > [@](#): > > I think you can make a case for claiming Bush is a hypocrite, since he signed into law the identical practice while he was governor of Texas. Delay can be criticized as general scum, but unless you have found him equating the two actions, the charge of hypocrisy is simply one that you are inventing because you dislike him. His father had much higher brain function than Schiavo. Did he and his family err on the side of life? Nope: death and lawsuit (another hypocrisy). > [@](#): > > I have not actually seen anyone on _either_ side of this debate make “subtle” arguments when the TV cameras come out. It is all sound bites. Which is precisely the issue. Live by the sword, die by it. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-appointed-culture-of-life-heroes-are-killers-by-their-own-rhetoric/296497/33 "2005-03-29T05:00:53Z")
OK. Now I get it. This is just dueling sound bites. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-appointed-culture-of-life-heroes-are-killers-by-their-own-rhetoric/296497/34 "2005-03-29T05:28:57Z")
No, dueling soundbites would involve both sides using soundbites. Apos is not using soundbites, he is just pointing out the consequences for the “Culture of Life” people of their own duelling weapon choice. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-appointed-culture-of-life-heroes-are-killers-by-their-own-rhetoric/296497/35 "2005-03-29T05:35:36Z")
At the very least, this case will serve as a lesson to us all to have our loved one’s aware of our wishes via living wills and durable powers of attorney. ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-appointed-culture-of-life-heroes-are-killers-by-their-own-rhetoric/296497/36 "2005-03-29T06:45:12Z")
And let’s certainly not leave out this shining example of the “Culture Of Life” who has been arrested for putting a price on the head of Mr. Schiavo and also on the judge who ordered the feeding tube removed. [http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/03/25/arrest.schiavo/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/03/25/arrest.schiavo/index.html) The family has a right to their opinion and I sympathize with them deeply (although I am with Mr. Schiavo on this one). The people who are using this to push their political agenda and are riding a tragedy like the Grand Marshall on a Rose Bowl float make me sick. ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2005, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-appointed-culture-of-life-heroes-are-killers-by-their-own-rhetoric/296497/37 "2005-03-30T02:26:00Z")
And here’s another defender of the Culture Of Life, threatening to kill Michael Schiavo’s sister-in-law and her family if (when) Terry Schiavo passes on. [http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/29/schiavo.threats/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/29/schiavo.threats/index.html) I understand that this doesn’t represent the majority of the people who are on the Schindlers’ side of this argument but cases like this really seem to bring the death-threatening wingnuts out of the woodwork and an awful lot of them seem to be on the “Culture Of Life” side. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2005, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-appointed-culture-of-life-heroes-are-killers-by-their-own-rhetoric/296497/38 "2005-03-30T02:35:51Z")
You know, Randall Terry better not bitch about how Michael Schiavo has a GF and two kids on the side; Terry himself dumped his wife of nineteen years for somebody who’s a couple years older than the son he disowned for being gay. Has anybody seen the abrupt reversal by Hal Turner, upon discovering that Terri was born Jewish and converted—I guess—to Catholocism? These guys are just hypocrites all over. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2005, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-appointed-culture-of-life-heroes-are-killers-by-their-own-rhetoric/296497/39 "2005-03-30T06:26:29Z")
_Psssst!_ [Message 27!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5996432&postcount=27) ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2005, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-appointed-culture-of-life-heroes-are-killers-by-their-own-rhetoric/296497/40 "2005-03-30T11:40:59Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > _Psssst!_ [Message 27!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5996432&postcount=27) Thanks, rjung. How did I miss that? And topic? They’re scumbags. Terry, especially. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-appointed-culture-of-life-heroes-are-killers-by-their-own-rhetoric/296497.md?page=1)