# Self defence for dummies **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 25, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defence-for-dummies/565388 "2010-12-25T23:51:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Miltonyz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Miltonyz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miltonyz)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defence-for-dummies/565388/61 "2011-01-03T22:27:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Hey, don’t look at me. I’m a fencer. Do you have a cane sword? If so you are officially the coolest poster in the history of SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defence-for-dummies/565388/62 "2011-01-04T01:57:35Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Although it is not unique in this respect, Wing Chun (sometimes called Ving Tsun) fits these criteria to a tee; the only weakness is a philosophical avoidance of ground technique, which I think should be studied if only to avoid or rapidly exit the situations where it occurs. Classical Western pugilism and Muay Thai also offer some excellent practical basics like grounding and shedding, but both require considerable physical conditioning to be effective, whereas Wing Chun is intended to be used by a smaller, weaker opponent. In any case, it will be a couple years of regular study (2-3 times a week) before such arts will be adequately trained to be useful in a real fight, though just a knowledge of basic striking and an attitude of awareness may be enough for the average person to escape from a single surprise attack. Wing Chun has the disadvantage that it’s probably the worst of the “legitimate” striking styles, and possibly slightly worse than not studying anything at all. I would be interested to see what would happen if you took twins and had one of them study Wing Chun and the other follow a general fitness program for the same amount of time. My gut feeling is that the “fitness” twin would win a fight, which is something that I wouldn’t say about Judo, boxing, wrestling, or BJJ. I remember seeing the two greatest living grandmasters of Wing Chun/Ving Tsun get into an actual fight, and thinking that a couple of 12-year-old girls would have done a better job. Has that video been erased from the memory of the Wing Chun/Tsung collective? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defence-for-dummies/565388/63 "2011-01-04T01:59:48Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > In terms of widely available styles, Krav Maga is probably the best bet. Is there any support for this other than that the Krav Maga marketing materials say so? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defence-for-dummies/565388/64 "2011-01-04T02:08:20Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Is there any support for this other than that the Krav Maga marketing materials say so? The fact that all soldiers in the IDF are trained in it’s use. Those guys wouldn’t use something if it didn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defence-for-dummies/565388/65 "2011-01-04T02:12:12Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > The fact that all soldiers in the IDF are trained in it’s use. Those guys wouldn’t use something if it didn’t work. Awesome dry wit humour, I didnt figure you were such a master. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defence-for-dummies/565388/66 "2011-01-04T02:14:30Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > The fact that all soldiers in the IDF are trained in it’s use. Those guys wouldn’t use something if it didn’t work. I think you’ll find that military martial arts are pretty much universally crap. In fact, I would think that for anyone who has actually been exposed to military martial arts, the fact that it’s taught in the military would be a warning sign that it’s not very good. I should point out that I do respect the Krav Maga afficionados for turning something that should be a negative into a marketing point: “It’s not a BUG, it’s a feature!” ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defence-for-dummies/565388/67 "2011-01-04T02:16:33Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > I think you’ll find that military martial arts are pretty much universally crap. In fact, I would think that for anyone who has actually been exposed to military martial arts, the fact that it’s taught in the military would be a warning sign that it’s not very good. > > I should point out that I do respect the Krav Maga afficionados for turning something that should be a negative into a marketing point: “It’s not a BUG, it’s a feature!” Edited to add that I do know that BJJ is taught to the Marines, but they learn a watered-down lowest-common-denominator version that doesn’t impress anyone. And that’s the best military martial art taught. ETA: I guess that wasn’t the “Edit” button. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defence-for-dummies/565388/68 "2011-01-04T05:22:01Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Is there any support for this other than that the Krav Maga marketing materials say so? I doubt it. [Here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhKjpdWyYMc) is what is represented as run of the mill KM. Of the half of it that might work, it’s nothing special in MA. Any number of other disciplines could be used that way. [This Grand Master stuff](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWPvdXCqa9M&feature=related)is totally dependent on the “attackers” cooperation. [“The Best Krav Maga trainer”](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnZ0sfOiuIM) video, while fun to watch, is laughable as self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defence-for-dummies/565388/69 "2011-01-04T07:20:39Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Wing Chun has the disadvantage that it’s probably the worst of the “legitimate” striking styles, and possibly slightly worse than not studying anything at all. I would be interested to see what would happen if you took twins and had one of them study Wing Chun and the other follow a general fitness program for the same amount of time. My gut feeling is that the “fitness” twin would win a fight, which is something that I wouldn’t say about Judo, boxing, wrestling, or BJJ. And thus we have a life-size example of the kind of ponce-ism mention in post #48; someone who has little-to-no experience in the art he critiques with an assumed stance of expertise. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defence-for-dummies/565388/70 "2011-01-04T14:05:26Z")
> [@Miltonyz](#): > > Do you have a cane sword? If so you are officially the coolest poster in the history of SDMB. I tried to buy one but I wasn’t cool enough. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defence-for-dummies/565388/71 "2011-01-04T16:34:26Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Hey, don’t look at me. I’m a fencer. Well, that will come in handy if you are ever mugged by Errol Flynn. > [@2square4u](#): > > Most situations where MA are useful don’t start out of the blue. They start with bad-mouthing, and progresses via grabbing and finally to punching. If you train a “hitting” type of MA, you may get off by some kind of posturing (a friend of mine got away by asking for a few seconds to prepare, swung a couple of high round TKD kicks in the air and declared himself ready. The opponent backed out), [And then sometimes you may not.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBlTjz3pHN4) ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defence-for-dummies/565388/72 "2011-01-04T17:28:43Z")
> [@Miltonyz](#): > > Do you have a cane sword? If so you are officially the coolest poster in the history of SDMB. Yeah, a cane sword would be super-cool. When some other dude approaches me and looks threatening, I usually just start swinging my purse in a menacing way. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defence-for-dummies/565388/73 "2011-01-04T17:33:59Z")
You could replace your purse strap with a bullwhip. That’s even cooler than a cane sword. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defence-for-dummies/565388/74 "2011-01-04T17:42:40Z")
OK, let’s get something straight here. Krav Maga isn’t supposed to be the best martial art, it’s supposed to be the easiest to learn. It was designed specifically for that purpose. If you want to take an 8-week course in self-defense, learn KM - you’ll get the most out of it. If you want to become a a master, learn a real martial art. I’ve known several guys with extensive KM training. They were all good soldiers who could definitely handle themselves in a fight. Would they be able to beat a professional kickboxer or MMA fighter? Probably not, but OTOH, there wasn’t that big a risk of meeting one of those in the field. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defence-for-dummies/565388/75 "2011-01-04T17:52:08Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > And thus we have a life-size example of the kind of ponce-ism mention in post #48; someone who has little-to-no experience in the art he critiques with an assumed stance of expertise. If you say so. If someone said Judo was worthless then instead of insulting them I would link to evidence of judo’s successes, in real-life and in the cage: Convince them that way. I can see why that’s not an option for the Wing Chun supporter however, so I won’t belabor the point. > [@msmith537](#): > > [And then sometimes you may not.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBlTjz3pHN4) That was a movie scene that was spread across YouTube as a viral advertisement. It seems to have lasted longer than the actual movie. > [@PlainJain](#): > > I doubt it. [Here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhKjpdWyYMc) is what is represented as run of the mill KM. Of the half of it that might work, it’s nothing special in MA. Any number of other disciplines could be used that way. > > [This Grand Master stuff](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWPvdXCqa9M&feature=related)is totally dependent on the “attackers” cooperation. [“The Best Krav Maga trainer”](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnZ0sfOiuIM) video, while fun to watch, is laughable as self-defense. Those were pretty funny, though the last video led me to an actual [MMA match with Moti Horenstein](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpY5RnZvHFQ), who “captured three Junior Champion of Israel titles before induction in the army in 1983. . .His skills in Krav Maga and training under Dr. Dennis Hannover, the premier exponent of Krav Maga in Israel, gained Moti the infamy and mystique of the Israel Special Forces.” His opponent was Oleg Taktarov, so you can probably guess how the fight went. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defence-for-dummies/565388/76 "2011-01-04T18:11:22Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > OK, let’s get something straight here. Krav Maga isn’t supposed to be the best martial art, it’s supposed to be the easiest to learn. Let’s get something else straight… the OP asked about self-defense not artistry. If KM is the easiest to learn and it is effective, it’s the best. In my opinion it’s not. Regarding your soldier friends, being young, aggressive and in great cardio shape is probably what helps them in a fight. Real self-defense is not heroic, artistic nor does it take years to master. The idea of self-defense is not to be a good fighter but to either disable your attacker before the fight starts avoid the fight all together. [Check out this video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20_3Yk3B6DM&feature=player_embedded#!) from say 1:20 to 2:20. That’s self-defense that’s very easy to learn - strike first then get the fuck out of there. In my opinion movie fighting has given the lay person a false sense of what martial arts can do in a real fight. I’m not on a jag rag against Krav Maga, but learning the techniques shown in the videos I linked to earlier are no more easy to learn than any other MA techniques. ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defence-for-dummies/565388/77 "2011-01-04T18:31:39Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You could replace your purse strap with a bullwhip. That’s even cooler than a cane sword. You’re jaded. If Indiana Jones had swung a Chanel clutch to hit a Nazi, you’d think my man-purse was just as cool. Plus, you could pre-load it with the Chihuahua of Death! ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defence-for-dummies/565388/78 "2011-01-05T04:02:45Z")
Wow, had no idea there was a debate on Krav Maga (particularly, is it overrated crap when compared to say, Judo). However, the first thing I’m doing is taking **msmith537** ’s suggestion of cardio, been getting out of shape over the holidays, so typical to the month of January I’m trying to increase my stamina and endurance, which I imagine will be very useful in any defence scenario (as, if all else fails, you can at least \*try \*and run away). ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defence-for-dummies/565388/79 "2011-01-05T05:04:09Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > If you say so. If someone said Judo was worthless then instead of insulting them I would link to evidence of judo’s successes, in real-life and in the cage: Convince them that way. I can see why that’s not an option for the Wing Chun supporter however, so I won’t belabor the point. Why would I bother to attempt to convince you of anything, insofar as you’ve already formed a very strong and frankly vitriolic opinion on virtually no information whatsoever. It is curious indeed that you compare Wing Chun unfavorably to pugilism, despite the fact that they share many of the same training pedagogies and overall philosophy. Judo, on the other hand, suffers from the same limitations as Brazilian Ju-jujitsu in concentrating on immobilizing an opponent by joint locking and/or taking to ground, thereby reducing the mobility of the defender. It can be a very effective set of techniques against an attacker who overcommits or goes to ground, but I would not consider it an all-encompassing defensive art. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defence-for-dummies/565388/80 "2011-01-05T06:40:57Z")
Technique is irrelevant. Size, strength, conditioning and experience will trump technique alone, and are what make the difference in any fight. Unless you count fighting dirty as technique, but I put it the experience category. Practitioners of every technique will contend that their technique is superior. Some of them must be wrong. Evidence shows that all of them are wrong. A fair fight is not a real fight. Most martial arts are now and have been practised over time in an exhibition form. They are deadly arts, and in real fights the loser might die. In a real fight, the person who is willing to use his abilities to maim, cripple, or kill his opponent will turn out the winner given equivalent levels of the other factors. Staying out of fights is the best way to defend yourself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defence-for-dummies/565388.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defence-for-dummies/565388.md?page=5)