# Self defense rights question. Video included. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 12, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521 "2012-10-12T15:21:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/1 "2012-10-12T15:21:32Z")
So, my question is this: If a grown man gets hit by a 17 year old girl, can he hit her back? What if it takes him a several seconds to get up out of his chair to hit her? Would the law say that is plenty of time for him to have just removed himself from the situation? This [video](http://www.fark.com/vidplayer/7378237)shows a bus driver uppercutting the bumbaclaat out of a smart mouthed disrespectful teenager. What are the chances he will go to jail? I know laws differ by state. But is there a pat answer that generally applies? ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/2 "2012-10-12T15:30:32Z")
Go bus driver, go… he he he ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/3 "2012-10-12T15:42:13Z")
I’ve never hit a woman. Never _been_ hit by one neither. Someone takes the first swing, all bets are off. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/4 "2012-10-12T15:45:01Z")
He’ll probably be charged with assault, and I guarantee that he’s fired. IANAL, but it’s my understanding that self-defense must be of “reasonably proportionate force” to an assault. From what’s on the video, I do not see where she physically assaults him; she appears to put her hands on him as the guy in the reflector vest is sitting down next to the cameraman, but it’s definitely not a punch. The driver’s response is **grossly** out of proportion to any danger or assault he may have perceived or experienced. That said, #1 personally I wouldn’t have done it given that situation, but #2 that girl was a bitch and she _literally_ asked for it, and #3 I laughed my ass off so thanks for sharing this. ---
**Author:** ![Nazarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nazarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nazarene)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/5 "2012-10-12T15:52:38Z")
That was not self-defense, just assault and battery. That girl was obnoxious, disruptive, annoying and wrong, but the driver was not defending himself, just acting out in anger. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/6 "2012-10-12T15:53:09Z")
He’s been suspended, but not fired (yet.) Notice that after that fine execution of an uppercut and getting literally thrown off the bus - she gets back up swinging. Cleveland - Ya gotta be tough. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/7 "2012-10-12T15:53:56Z")
I think the world would be a much more polite place with about 100,000 more bus drivers like that. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/8 "2012-10-12T16:04:27Z")
Yeah. I laughed at the video. Scared to admit it, but I did. I really wanted to hear that the dude somehow got away with it. Dorjan, did he get charged with anything? ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/9 "2012-10-12T16:06:11Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > I think the world would be a much more polite place with about 100,000 more bus drivers like that. No thanks. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/10 "2012-10-12T16:07:23Z")
The rule of thumb for personal defense is whether a reasonable person would perceive the violence to be proportional to neutralizing the threat. You are also expected to cease using force once the threat has been neutralized (which depends on the situation). So if there is a significant delay between the assault and the victim’s response, it could be argued that there was no longer a threat and so force was no longer authorized. Looking at the video, the real question is whether the violence was proportional to the threat. I didn’t see anything in the video that would have justified him striking her like that. IMHO, he could be subject to prosecution or a lawsuit. Then it would be up to the jury to decide whether her provocation justified his response. If she continued to strike him repeatedly, he would have a better argument, but since she was not continuing to attack there was no reason for him to pursue her. He would have been better off removing himself from the situation and summoning the police. As an additional note, many states give businessmen broad powers to protect their place of business. Depending on the state, he may have been permitted to physically eject her from the bus. In such a case, you are expected to use the lowest level of force and then escalate only if the detainee resists. He would still have to explain why it was necessary to strike her and why he could not have waited for the police. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/11 "2012-10-12T16:16:52Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > IMHO, he could be subject to prosecution or a lawsuit. Then it would be up to the jury to decide whether her provocation justified his response. I’m assuming the video would be entered into evidence by the prosecution as well as the defense. Would the judge be glaring at the snickering jurors? ---
**Author:** ![Nazarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nazarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nazarene)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/12 "2012-10-12T16:19:05Z")
I don’t see anything to snicker about. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/13 "2012-10-12T16:21:11Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I’m assuming the video would be entered into evidence by the prosecution as well as the defense. Would the judge be glaring at the snickering jurors? Probably. One of the biggest pitfalls of the jury system is that a juror can vote whichever way they want, for whatever reason they please. So a juror could just decide “she had it coming” and refuse to convict. This is called “jury nullification,” defined as when the juror just says “screw it.” They’re not supposed to, but it’s happened. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/14 "2012-10-12T16:24:38Z")
> [@Jesus of Nazareth](#): > > I don’t see anything to snicker about. Hey, can you see your house from there? ---
**Author:** ![Nazarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nazarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nazarene)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/15 "2012-10-12T16:28:43Z")
House? I have no house. Foxes have holes, and the birds of the sky have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/16 "2012-10-12T16:32:52Z")
Could the driver have a case for the “fighting words” defense? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/17 "2012-10-12T16:32:54Z")
When the video starts, the bus is clearly moving. It looks like he has to stop before getting up to deck her. So she was interfering with the operation of the bus while it was moving and endangering the other riders. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/18 "2012-10-12T16:36:28Z")
> [@Jesus of Nazareth](#): > > House? I have no house. Foxes have holes, and the birds of the sky have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head. Um. That is an awesome post. I’m being sincere. That was just awesome. DCnDC, I know, right? You gonna talk about that old man mammy when she likely dead and gone? Man, that girl from the streets. She knows thems fightin words. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/19 "2012-10-12T16:55:55Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > When the video starts, the bus is clearly moving. It looks like he has to stop before getting up to deck her. So she was interfering with the operation of the bus while it was moving and endangering the other riders. Yeah, but he could have just stopped the bus, got off and called the police. As I saw it, he stopped the bus, got up and walked several steps before striking her. ---
**Author:** ![Nazarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nazarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nazarene)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/20 "2012-10-12T16:59:05Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > When the video starts, the bus is clearly moving. It looks like he has to stop before getting up to deck her. So she was interfering with the operation of the bus while it was moving and endangering the other riders. The fact that the bus was stopped and the driver was standing up shows that the bus was no longer being operated and the passengers were no longer in danger. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521.md?page=2)