# Self defense rights question. Video included. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 12, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521 "2012-10-12T15:21:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/41 "2012-10-12T18:26:19Z")
Not an act of self-defense by any stretch of the imagination. You don’t get to get up and go after someone and call it self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/42 "2012-10-12T18:31:05Z")
> [@Dorjan](#): > > According to witnesses, she spit on him. Motherfucker do that shit to me, he better paralyze my ass, ‘cause I’ll kill the motherfucker, know what I’m sayin’? ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/43 "2012-10-12T18:34:49Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Well, then he clearly should have stabbed or shot her. > You’re my new hero. Do you have any literature about your ways which you could leave in my mailbox? I started googling toot suite. I found [this](http://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-Bible-Books/b?ie=UTF8&node=572082). It appears to be some kind of manifesto for his movement. I’ve already ordered mine. Clothahump, that was a hell of an uppercut. Did you hear the wet, sucking, sickening thud that resonated through the bus? Listen here…just because a person can take a hell of a punch doesn’t mean a hell of a punch wasn’t thrown. My husband said, "Damn! When she got off the floor, it sounded like she said, “Mitt Romney! You got me fucked up!” She was dazed and confused. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/44 "2012-10-12T18:35:11Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Well, then he clearly should have stabbed or shot her. I’m not really sure what you’re getting at here. > [@Jesus of Nazareth](#): > > It was a criminal assault and battery on a minor. There is no available defense here that I can see. He was not defending himself. The fact that she spit on him is not sufficient to support to support a claim of self defense. Self defense is not the only defense to battery. It is a subset of the defense of justification, which can take several forms. One of them is provocation, which is a complete defense to simple battery in many jurisdictions. ---
**Author:** ![Nazarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nazarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nazarene)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/45 "2012-10-12T18:41:57Z")
There no “provocation” defense. That’s not correct. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/46 "2012-10-12T18:43:24Z")
Jesus Christ! ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/47 "2012-10-12T18:51:39Z")
On a pogo-stick! ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/48 "2012-10-12T19:04:05Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m not really sure what you’re getting at here. If someone spits on me, that’s a battery. Would I not be legally justified in escalating the battery to the point of causing (or threatening to cause) great bodily harm to the other person? If I can throw a haymaker at someone who doesn’t have their dukes up, I would presume I could legally use other forms of escalating force in self defense… right? > [@Nzinga](#): > > I started googling toot suite. I found this. It appears to be some kind of manifesto for his movement. I looked through it on the Google books thing, and the [humor](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1165/are-there-any-jokes-in-the-bible) is… well, not as amusing as his other posts. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/49 "2012-10-12T19:08:03Z")
> [@Jesus of Nazareth](#): > > There no “provocation” defense. That’s not correct. Leave the scribe’s work to the scribes. ---
**Author:** ![Nazarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nazarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nazarene)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/50 "2012-10-12T19:11:17Z")
The bus driver was not defending himself. It is not enough for spitting to be definable as a “battery.” That does not make retaliation into self-defense. That is not what self-defense means. There has to be an immediate, ongoing threat, not just some history of having spit on you. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/51 "2012-10-12T19:16:43Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > If someone spits on me, that’s a battery. Would I not be legally justified in escalating the battery to the point of causing (or threatening to cause) great bodily harm to the other person? If I can throw a haymaker at someone who doesn’t have their dukes up, I would presume I could legally use other forms of escalating force in self defense… right?7 No. Spitting is an _offensive_ battery, as distinguished from a \*harmful \*one, and thus does not justify violence in self-defense. It may justify violence on some other basis. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/52 "2012-10-12T19:26:22Z")
Next you’re going to say I can’t legally strangle someone who is being obnoxious! That’s just crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/53 "2012-10-12T19:40:46Z")
Well, I won’t stop you. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/54 "2012-10-12T19:41:30Z")
We need to merge this with the jury nullification thread. Or let him use the “laws against punching some bitch are bogus” defense. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/55 "2012-10-12T19:50:33Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No. Spitting is an _offensive_ battery, as distinguished from a \*harmful \*one, and thus does not justify violence in self-defense. It may justify violence on some other basis. I think spitting is considered a harmful battery because of the possibility of passing a disease around, in these body-fluid-fearing days. ---
**Author:** ![Nazarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nazarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nazarene)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/56 "2012-10-12T20:02:34Z")
That would still not constitute an immediate danger requiring force. No matter how you slioce it, this action was purely retaliatory, not defensive. You can’t punch a kid in the face because she might have given you a cold. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/57 "2012-10-12T20:09:31Z")
> [@Jesus of Nazareth](#): > > That would still not constitute an immediate danger requiring force. No matter how you slioce it, this action was purely retaliatory, not defensive. You can’t punch a kid in the face because she might have given you a cold. You can’t even punch her in the face if she might have given you HIV - unless she is continuing to spit in your face even while you wind up to take a swing. ---
**Author:** ![temp\_user](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@temp\_user](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/temp_user)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/58 "2012-10-12T20:09:40Z")
Is it confirmed she only spit on him? The Daily Mail claims she hit him [Cleveland bus driver caught on video punching unruly female passenger | Daily Mail Online](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2216844/Cleveland-bus-driver-caught-video-punching-unruly-female-passenger.html) You cannot see what she does when she approaches the driver. When he stands up, he says “You’re going to jail now!” then clocks her. Of course, the appropriate action would have been to stop the bus and call the police. If she did hit him, he might have been too hot to have been thinking clearly, although that might not excuse his action. ---
**Author:** ![Nazarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nazarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nazarene)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/59 "2012-10-12T20:19:51Z")
It doesn’t matter. When he got up and went over to hit her, she wasn’t doing anything. At that moment he was not defending himself. Retaliation is not self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![Nazarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nazarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nazarene)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/60 "2012-10-12T20:20:54Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > You can’t even punch her in the face if she might have given you HIV - unless she is continuing to spit in your face even while you wind up to take a swing. HIV cannot be transmitted through saliva. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521.md?page=4)