# Self defense rights question. Video included. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 12, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521 "2012-10-12T15:21:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/61 "2012-10-12T20:21:06Z")
What I don’t understand is, why the driver isn’t segregated from the passengers. Surely, for their protection it would make sense to give the driver a barrier. Like [this](http://www.hse.gov.uk/violence/hslcasestudies/first.htm) (scroll down). ---
**Author:** ![temp\_user](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@temp\_user](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/temp_user)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/62 "2012-10-12T20:28:02Z")
The video can be contrasted with the Epic Beard Man bus fight [- YouTube](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pimrJXErWgk) With EBM, it was two grown men, and EBM was reacting to being struck by the other passenger. ---
**Author:** ![akennett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee59a6/32.png) [@akennett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akennett)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/63 "2012-10-12T20:28:15Z")
> [@Jesus of Nazareth](#): > > There is no available defense here that I can see. Sure there is. It’s called “Bitch deserved it.” If I’m on the jury, there’s gonna be at least one steadfast not guilty vote. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/64 "2012-10-12T20:30:33Z")
> [@Jesus of Nazareth](#): > > HIV cannot be transmitted through saliva. Fair enough. Pick any number of other infectious diseases that can be transmitted through saliva - herpes, TB, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/65 "2012-10-12T20:40:41Z")
> [@temp\_user](#): > > The video can be contrasted with the Epic Beard Man bus fight [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pimrJXErWgk](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pimrJXErWgk) > > With EBM, it was two grown men, and EBM was reacting to being struck by the other passenger. Ugh, nothing epic about that man. ---
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/66 "2012-10-12T20:42:43Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Slim to none. He assaulted her, but she assaulted him first with that spitting stunt. If she dares to press charges against him, he’ll press charges against her; it’s a Mexican standoff in the courtroom, and the only win-win outcome is if they both refuse to press charges. I have a question about this pressing charges business. Does the victim in an assault actually have to press charges to allow the prosecutor to go forward with the case? Or is it that prosecutors generally don’t care to move forward with assault cases if the victim is not cooperating? ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/67 "2012-10-12T20:45:50Z")
> [@gazpacho](#): > > I have a question about this pressing charges business. Does the victim in an assault actually have to press charges to allow the prosecutor to go forward with the case? Or is it that prosecutors generally don’t care to move forward with assault cases if the victim is not cooperating? Depends. See [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=542210) (“How much say does a victim have in pressing charges?”). ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/68 "2012-10-12T20:57:49Z")
> [@Jesus of Nazareth](#): > > Spitting on someone is not a legal justification for assaulting and battering them. > > I have to admit, I’m kind of disturbed by the number of people who seem to be taking pleasure in watching a man brutalize a teenage girl. She was 25. Not a teenager. According to the driver she choked and spit on him while he was trying to drive the car. I agree, that he should of (roughly) tried to get her off the bus. And when she (inevitably) fought back, well that’s upper cut time. She also apparently took 4 bullets to the face and was stabbed in a robbery. No wonder she got up from the punch so quick. ---
**Author:** ![Nazarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nazarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nazarene)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/69 "2012-10-12T21:00:37Z")
She wasn’t fighting back. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/70 "2012-10-12T21:04:01Z")
> [@Jesus of Nazareth](#): > > She wasn’t fighting back. I was describing what should of happened, IMHO, not what actually took place. Not much fighting back after a punch like that anyways 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/71 "2012-10-12T21:20:40Z")
> [@Jesus of Nazareth](#): > > She wasn’t fighting back. Yes she was. When she got thrown off she got back on and attacked him again. And then after they were seperated she initiated the fight again. Why do you keep saying things that are contradictory to reality? Bitch got what she deserved. ---
**Author:** ![Freakenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b782af/32.png) [@Freakenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freakenstein)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/72 "2012-10-12T21:39:19Z")
> [@Jesus of Nazareth](#): > > There is no available defense here that I can see. I think We should forgive him, he didn’t know what he was doing. ---
**Author:** ![Nazarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nazarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nazarene)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/73 "2012-10-12T21:58:02Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Yes she was. When she got thrown off she got back on and attacked him again. This is a ludicrous circumlocution. She was not fighting back or threatening him when he battered her. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/74 "2012-10-12T22:46:22Z")
_ **If** _, she did indeed hit him while he was seated and driving the bus, then she fought and he fought back. He didn’t need to sit there and see if she would hit him again. He stood up, took one step toward her and POW! If she didn’t want a fight, she shouldn’t have hit him, assuming that she did. IOW, don’t start none, won’t be none. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/75 "2012-10-12T22:47:34Z")
> [@Szlater](#): > > No thanks. If bitches didn’t spit on and choke the drivers these things wouldn’t happen, so what’s the problem? ---
**Author:** ![Nazarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nazarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nazarene)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/76 "2012-10-12T22:52:59Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > _ **If** _, she did indeed hit him while he was seated and driving the bus, then she fought and he fought back. He didn’t need to sit there and see if she would hit him again. He stood up, took one step toward her and POW! If she didn’t want a fight, she shouldn’t have hit him, assuming that she did. IOW, don’t start none, won’t be none. It doesn’t actually work this way in the adult world. Self-defense does need certain criteria to be a defense. and the criteria was not met in this place, The driver was not defending himself. The bus was not in motion. The victim was not attacking him. The driver was free to leave the bus if he was really so afraid of her. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/77 "2012-10-12T23:08:09Z")
> [@Freakenstein](#): > > I think We should forgive him, he didn’t know what he was doing. Beautiful, just… beautiful! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/78 "2012-10-12T23:11:24Z")
> [@PlainJain](#): > > If bitches didn’t spit on and choke the drivers these things wouldn’t happen, so what’s the problem? A world in which the constant threat of violence enforced politeness would be a terrible place. I’d feel the same about a world in which a large portion of the populace insisted that they needed a gun at all times for protection. Count me out. The fact that you refer to a woman as a “bitch” is also quite telling. ---
**Author:** ![temp\_user](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@temp\_user](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/temp_user)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/79 "2012-10-12T23:44:52Z")
> [@Szlater](#): > > Ugh, nothing epic about that man. Not even that combo he unleashed? ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/80 "2012-10-12T23:57:12Z")
So, leaving aside whether she “deserved it” or anything, let’s turn to actual self-defense here. Here’s a scenario (I’m making it more rigid than the one presented, because the video is not clear enough re: what she did to the driver before and after the uppercut): - Person A punches Person B, who is sitting down; then Person A steps back a few feet, holds her hands in a fighting posture, and continues to verbally threaten Person B - Person B stands up, walks over to Person A, and punches Person A right in the face. Is Person B acting in self-defense? I know we start to get into a LOT of particulars and judgment calls. Could Person B have reasonably fled the scene and gotten the police? Was Person B in real danger from an individual of Person A’s stature? Etc. But I think the point we’re hung up on here is this: **Exactly how much time has to elapse between the first strike and the responding strike before it is not appropriate?** Esp. if Person A still maintains a fighting posture? One second? Five seconds? Ten seconds? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521.md?page=5)