# Self defense rights question. Video included. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 12, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521 "2012-10-12T15:21:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2012, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/101 "2012-10-13T13:46:54Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Clothahump, that was a hell of an uppercut. Did you hear the wet, sucking, sickening thud that resonated through the bus? Listen here…just because a person can take a hell of a punch doesn’t mean a hell of a punch wasn’t thrown. My husband said, "Damn! When she got off the floor, it sounded like she said, “Mitt Romney! You got me fucked up!” > > She was dazed and confused. She was dazed and confused at the beginning of the video. A normal person doesn’t act like that. Nevertheless…he was wrong to hit her. Even though in our heart of hearts, we all know she had it coming, it was still wrong. There’s no way he can claim self-defense for that action. And you’re right - it sure does sound like she said Mitt Romney right afterwards. That’s funny shit right there. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2012, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/102 "2012-10-13T13:52:33Z")
> [@Jesus of Nazareth](#): > > It doesn’t actually work this way in the adult world. Self-defense does need certain criteria to be a defense. and the criteria was not met in this place, The driver was not defending himself. The bus was not in motion. The victim was not attacking him. The driver was free to leave the bus if he was really so afraid of her. Actually, this is almost exactly how it works in the adult world. The police and justice system become involved in a very small percentage of actual fights. Why do you assume that the attack was over? Couldn’t a reasonable person assume that if he had been hit once while seated, that he was still in danger? Is being struck with a fist (assuming that is what happened) inherently different than any other form of attack? What if he had been stabbed, would you still say that the attack was over and his only recourse was to get off the bus and call the police? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2012, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/103 "2012-10-13T13:55:41Z")
> [@Szlater](#): > > So people should get assaulted when they act or speak in a manner you don’t like or approve of? If the behavior includes attacking and spitting on people, sure. I don’t expect people to be machines who react to stressful situations with the same detached reflection as those of us who can spend hours dissecting what happened from the safety and comfort of our computers. I don’t view the woman as a victim. You can’t lay hands on another human being in that manner without expecting a violent response. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2012, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/104 "2012-10-13T14:02:40Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > If the behavior includes attacking and spitting on people, sure. I don’t expect people to be machines who react to stressful situations with the same detached reflection as those of us who can spend hours dissecting what happened from the safety and comfort of our computers. I don’t view the woman as a victim. You can’t lay hands on another human being in that manner without expecting a violent response. That reply had nothing to do with the question I asked. I didn’t ask about being assaulted. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2012, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/105 "2012-10-13T14:19:12Z")
It’s hard to tell because of the angle, but it looks to me like she made physical contact with the driver twice before he punched her. The fight was ongoing, and he defended himself. You can maybe argue that his uppercut did more damage than her attacks, but there’s no sense of “fighting fair” here: When you’re defending yourself, you use what you’ve got. And it’s not even actually clear that his attacks were the more damaging: When you physically assault the driver of a crowded bus while it’s moving, you’re putting a whole lot of people into danger a lot worse than a single punch. **Jesus of Nazareth** makes the claim that at the time of his punch, she had stopped her assault, and so defense was not valid. But this argument could be applied in any circumstance where the blows were not landed literally simultaneously. Even if she was not engaged in a swing at that exact moment, she was still in a fight. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2012, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/106 "2012-10-13T14:21:11Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > The woman is not an adolescent. I don’t know why the OP thought she was 17, [she’s 25](http://globalgrind.com/news/cleveland-bus-driver-punches-passanger-video-names-identified-artis-hughes-shidea-lane-photos?gpage=0&#gtop). I had no idea. I just wanted to know if this deuce could escape jail time for this. I wanted to rule out that they may convict solely on her being a minor. I don’t know. Just calm the hell down with the caps and the colors. Hey, Clothahump, you’re right. I knew in my heart that self defense couldn’t save the guy… I guess I was just fantasizig. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/107 "2012-10-13T14:37:34Z")
It’s large, but it’s not in caps and the color is because it’s a link (to an article with pics of the woman and additional info which could be helpful to anyone interested in this story, specifically what the driver told the police and what other witnesses said they saw). Apparently she grabbed him by the throat when she spit in his face (while he was driving). Sorry, I was just trying to clear that up because there are people who seem to be (extra) offended by the video because they think the woman is a teenager. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2012, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/108 "2012-10-13T14:45:45Z")
Oh. I’m posting from my phone and I thought…my mistake. Thanks for the link. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/109 "2012-10-13T22:28:43Z")
In this day & age of AIDS & other blood borne risks, where medical help won’t be given without protective gear and ANYONE spits in my face, I will take that to mean they are trying to kill me. ---
**Author:** ![Nazarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nazarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nazarene)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/110 "2012-10-14T00:25:24Z")
AIDS cannot be transmitted through saliva. Moreover, if someone has already spit on you, punching them will not defend you anyway. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/111 "2012-10-14T02:29:12Z")
> [@Jesus of Nazareth](#): > > AIDS cannot be transmitted through saliva. Moreover, if someone has already spit on you, punching them will not defend you anyway. It’ll decrease the likelihood they’ll spit again. Fuck em. ---
**Author:** ![Peanuthead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peanuthead/32/360_2.png) [@Peanuthead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peanuthead)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/112 "2012-10-14T05:09:59Z")
I’m just sooo glad that bus driver wasn’t white. Sharpton and J J would be all over that shit. And, just for the record, legal or not, the bitch deserved it. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/113 "2012-10-14T06:52:05Z")
> [@Peanuthead](#): > > I’m just sooo glad that bus driver wasn’t white. Sharpton and J J would be all over that shit. And, just for the record, legal or not, the bitch deserved it. But why is that something to be ‘sooo glad’ about? How would it affect your life if Al Sharpton decided to defend some raggedy, big mouth black woman? ---
**Author:** ![Peanuthead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peanuthead/32/360_2.png) [@Peanuthead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peanuthead)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/114 "2012-10-14T08:13:00Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > But why is that something to be ‘sooo glad’ about? How would it affect your life if Al Sharpton decided to defend some raggedy, big mouth black woman? Because if the bus driver was white it would no longer be about a bus driver punching out a loud mouthed woman, it would be all about “white guy beats up Black woman.” It would be in every paper and newscast inflaming tempers and causing racial unrest for sure. And I would hate to see that happen. Remember Rodney King? ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/115 "2012-10-14T12:27:49Z")
The bus driver’s duty is to protect the safety of the passengers. She was a proven threat to him and the passengers, and he took steps to stop the threat. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/116 "2012-10-14T12:30:51Z")
**Jesus of Nazareth** : I notice from your profile that one of your interests is ‘Smiting’. Do you only smite in self-defence? BTW, I always thought that it was your Dad who had rather more of a reputation for that kind of thing… ---
**Author:** ![Nazarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nazarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nazarene)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/117 "2012-10-14T15:18:18Z")
My dad is trying to get me into that, so I put it in my profile, but it’s honestly not my thing. We don’t see eye to eye on a lot of things. I’m a tree-hugging, vegetarian, bleeding heart lefty. My dad is a hardcore, right wing Republican who believes every stupid anti-Obama email forward and WND article he gets. I’m like, “Dad, you’re _omniscient_. You know Obama was born in Hawaii. You _saw_ it.” But he thinks it was some kind of “Lamestream media” trick. You don’t even want to _know_ his views on women. Plus he thinks I’m gay. Just because I’m not married and hang around with 12 other dudes… ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/118 "2012-10-14T18:53:25Z")
I’ve just watched **temp user** ’s Epic Beard Man on a bus link. IIRC, your Dad’s an old guy with a white beard. It couldn’t be… Could it? The geezer certainly knows how to smite… ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/119 "2012-10-14T21:16:00Z")
> [@Peanuthead](#): > > Because if the bus driver was white it would no longer be about a bus driver punching out a loud mouthed woman, it would be all about “white guy beats up Black woman.” It would be in every paper and newscast inflaming tempers and causing racial unrest for sure. And I would hate to see that happen. Remember Rodney King? I do remember Rodney King. I don’t think Al Sharpton “being all over that shit” caused the riots. Look. Shoehorning race into this thread is just awkward and herky jerky and clumsy to watch. There are so many threads on this video on websites where the race discussion works (and is funny to boot…Some of the racial jokes at fark cracked me up). But in this thread, forcing race into it just doesn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521/120 "2012-10-14T21:32:35Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > But in this thread, forcing race into it just doesn’t work. No, it doesn’t because both parties happened to be of the same race; I am 100% convinced that Peanuthead is right, and if the driver was a white guy, there would be plenty of people (both here at SDMB and in the world at large) who would insist on making into a Race Thing… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-defense-rights-question-video-included/637521.md?page=7)