# Self driving cars are still decades away **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 10, 2017, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499 "2017-10-10T17:38:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 142
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2025, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/2828 "2025-08-04T15:29:34Z")
Here’s a nice, undramatic article about the meeting and letter exchange that’s been going on for a while in California between Tesla and regulatory authorities. Interesting reading, at least for me. [https://www.politico.com/news/2025/07/30/tesla-robotaxi-permit-problems-california-00486269](https://www.politico.com/news/2025/07/30/tesla-robotaxi-permit-problems-california-00486269) ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2025, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/2829 "2025-08-04T18:53:43Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > that amount for damages seems sort of unreasonable to me This summary of the trial transcripts shows how poorly Tesla behaved. > **[Tesla withheld data, lied, and misdirected police and plaintiffs to avoid...](https://electrek.co/2025/08/04/tesla-withheld-data-lied-misdirected-police-plaintiffs-avoid-blame-autopilot-crash/)** > > Tesla was caught withholding data, lying about it, and misdirecting authorities in the wrongful death case involving Autopilot that it... The summary from the summary: > - Tesla had the data on its servers within minutes of the crash > - When the police sought the data, Tesla redirected them toward other data > - When the police sought Tesla’s help in extracting it from the computer, Tesla falsely claimed it was “corrupted” > - Tesla invented an “auto-delete” feature that didn’t exist to try explain why it couldn’t originally find the data in the computer > - When the plaintiffs asked for the data, Tesla said that it didn’t exist > - Tesla only admitted to the existence of the data once presented with forensic evidence that it was created and transfered to its servers. and the most damning part (to me): > Map and vision data from the ECU revealed: > > - Map data from the Autopilot ECU included a flag that the area was a **“restricted Autosteer zone.”** > - Despite this, the system **allowed Autopilot to remain engaged** at full speed. This is _after_ the NTSB had instructed Tesla to “Incorporate system safeguards that limit the use of automated vehicle control systems to those conditions for which they were designed (the vehicle’s operational design domain).” Do remember, that this was the old Autopilot autosteer system, not the current FSD (supervised). The current system is designed to handle stop signs and traffic lights, and _probably_ would have stopped at the stop sign, and not hit a parked car. The old system had trouble with stationary objects in the path of travel, and though the incidents were rare, they were catastrophic (as @Stranger_On_A_Train [references](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/2823)). Though I used your post as a reply, this isn’t really directed at you, @Dr_Paprika. Tesla’s handling of this from start to finish is what created Tesla’s culpability. Everyone involves agrees the driver misused Autopilot, and it was the driver’s actions and inactions that caused the crash. Tesla let Autopilot be used in ways it was clearly not ready to handle, despite being told not to, then lied and impeded the investigation to try and cover it up. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2025, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/2830 "2025-08-04T19:16:26Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > - When the police sought the data, Tesla redirected them toward other data > - When the police sought Tesla’s help in extracting it from the computer, Tesla falsely claimed it was “corrupted” > - Tesla invented an “auto-delete” feature that didn’t exist to try explain why it couldn’t originally find the data in the computer > - When the plaintiffs asked for the data, Tesla said that it didn’t exist > - Tesla only admitted to the existence of the data once presented with forensic evidence that it was created and transfered to its servers. This is interesting because what you describe as “Tesla” is, in fact, a human being, or multiple human beings, who all deserve to be tried and jailed for impeding an investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2025, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/2831 "2025-08-04T19:24:31Z")
IANAL, so: how do criminal charges work in the instance of subverting civil discovery? ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2025, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/2832 "2025-08-04T19:24:35Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > what you describe as “Tesla” is, in fact, a human being, or multiple human beings Start at the top. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2025, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/2833 "2025-08-04T19:55:12Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > how do criminal charges work in the instance of subverting civil discovery? Step 1 - disbar the lawyers. Step 2 - at the beginning, when the police were investigating, this was not a civil matter, a person was dead at the hands of another person, a homicide. Demand a subpoena if you must, but whatever human said “we don’t have that data” or “that data was corrupted” when that wasn’t true, should be charged. If your boss tells you “please lie to the homicide detectives”, you should say “no, thanks, YOU can lie if you want, but I prefer life outside of prison” ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2025, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/2834 "2025-08-07T01:08:47Z")
Truly. That is some serious shit and while $200-million extra for the victim’s family is nice, for the rest of us, people should go to prison. This makes VW’s dieselgate look like nothing. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2025, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/2835 "2025-08-07T04:16:08Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > This makes VW’s dieselgate look like nothing I _really_ am not trying to minimize Tesla’s culpability with some sort of relative harms argument, but the number of deaths from dieselgate is staggering. A recent report from The Guardian claims 16,000 excess deaths just in the UK. Breathing diesel pollution is bad for you. > **[Dieselgate pollution killed 16,000 people in UK, study estimates](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/may/28/dieselgate-pollution-killed-16000-people-in-uk-study-estimates)** > > Experts decry lack of UK government action and warn a further 6,000 early deaths could occur My car before the Tesla was a VW. I sure know how to pick winners. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2025, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/2836 "2025-08-11T02:51:18Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > Tesla has a supercomputer, called [Dojo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Dojo), which they use to train the models. This was the last mention of Dojo here, so it’s probably not too significant, but it’s been shut down. [https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-streamline-its-ai-chip-design-work-musk-says-2025-08-07/](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-streamline-its-ai-chip-design-work-musk-says-2025-08-07/) Though maybe this is a different Dojo. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2025, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/2837 "2025-08-11T02:54:13Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > Though maybe this is a different Dojo. Yeah, I thought Tesla’s Dojo was where they trained the people who pretend to be their robots. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2025, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/2838 "2025-08-11T03:14:33Z")
Wait, I thought that was FauxJoe. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2025, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/2839 "2025-08-12T03:35:29Z")
> [General Motors](https://www.autoblog.com/tag/gm) (GM) has begun reigniting its defunct [self-driving](https://www.autoblog.com/tag/autonomous-vehicles) Cruise business by approaching some of the subsidiary’s former employees for recruitment. However, the automaker is said to be pivoting from Cruise’s original mission of creating a robotaxi into manufacturing autonomous cars for personal use, [Bloomberg](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-08-11/gm-plans-renewed-push-on-driverless-cars-after-cruise-debacle?embedded-checkout=true) reports. The Cruise revival would begin with GM developing a vehicle with hands-free, eyes-free driving with a human in the driver’s seat. Next, Cruise would create a car capable of operating without a human behind the wheel **GM Plans to Resurrect Self-Driving Car Project With a Twist:** GM’s Cruise is making a comeback—and its strategy pivots from many rivals in the self-driving race. [https://www.autoblog.com/news/gm-plans-to-resurrect-self-driving-car-project-with-a-twist](https://www.autoblog.com/news/gm-plans-to-resurrect-self-driving-car-project-with-a-twist) So it sounds like it was a mistake to mostly kill Cruise as they have lost a lot of momentum. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2025, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/2840 "2025-08-26T17:24:11Z")
Currently HW4 Teslas are on 13.2.9 and HW3 are on 12.6.4. They are (supposedly) functionally equivalent which is significant because HW3 owners were promised a free upgrade if they purchased a lifetime FSD subscription and the latest version is not functionally equivalent. The Tesla Robotaxis and using a more advanced version of FSD but still 13.x. FSD v14 is, according to Elon, going to be released by the end of September. It’s alleged to be a major update that uses 10x more parameters and will have significantly fewer nags under most circumstances but the same amount of attention required in “unusual” situations. The Robo fleet and regular cars will be merged into the same FSD. It’s also supposed to be a much more natural feel to the driving. Elon also claimed that by the end of the year we could see a version that is truly autonomous in many situations like, I think, highway driving without construction. There may be no bigger FSD fanboy that I am and this is complete bullshit in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2025, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/2841 "2025-08-27T20:29:29Z")
Relevant to the subject of self-driving, [Tesla rejected $60 million settlement before losing $243 million Autopilot verdict](https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/tesla-rejected-60-million-settlement-before-losing-243-million-autopilot-verdict-2025-08-25/) ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2025, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/2842 "2025-09-03T14:37:42Z")
> **[Waymo expands to Denver and Seattle with its Zeekr-made vans | TechCrunch](https://techcrunch.com/2025/09/02/waymo-expands-to-denver-and-seattle-with-its-zeekr-made-vans/)** > > Add another two cities to the growing list where Waymo is looking to deploy its robotaxis. The company will start with manual testing but is eyeing a commercial launch in both cities. Something significant about this is that Denver gets 50 to 60 inches of snow a year–unlike the other cities Waymo is in. There have been questions about how well self-driving vehicles can do in the snow. ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2025, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/2843 "2025-09-10T19:11:15Z")
Zoox launches in Las Vegas. I’ve seen quite a few of their vehicles doing driverless tests in San Francisco, so they seem to be fairly close to launching here as well and I’ve received emails from them to that effect. > **[Amazon's Zoox launches its robotaxi service in Las Vegas](https://apnews.com/article/amazon-zoox-robotaxis-las-vegas-bd5cb24602fb16243efcba05c7fe518f)** > > Amazon’s Zoox on Wednesday launched its robotaxi service in Las Vegas, offering free rides through parts of the entertainment mecca for anyone willing to gamble on the safety of a driverless vehicle. And as long as I’m here, I’ll update on my Waymo stats. 413 rides, 1416 miles, 7548 minutes, no significant issues but mild hiccups every now and then, usually overly cautious driving which can lead to it being more ‘stuck’ than it needs to be. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2025, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/2844 "2025-09-20T15:22:43Z")
Musk said this month that Optimus robots will represent 80% of Tesla’s revenue. Oh, you thought robotaxis were its future? Stop living in the past, man. That’s so August. Of course, it doesn’t help that the head executive of the Optimus program quit Thursday to join Meta. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2025, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/2845 "2025-09-20T15:24:19Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Musk said this month that Optimus robots will represent 80% of Tesla’s revenue. By the end of the year, next year at the latest, right? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2025, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/2846 "2025-09-20T15:35:05Z")
Considering how little revenue Optimus generates, perhaps musk is telegraphing the cratering of Tesla, not the booming of Optimus. One can hope. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2025, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/2847 "2025-09-20T16:22:21Z")
Why would you want a company that employs 125,000 people, mostly high paying, to crater? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499.md?page=141) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499.md?page=143)