# Self driving cars are still decades away **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 10, 2017, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499 "2017-10-10T17:38:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 86
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/1708 "2024-03-27T19:50:41Z")
> [@wguy123](#): > > I was referring to the lane it turned into as it completed the turn. In the screenshot below, **it appears it should’ve turned into the nearest lane** I indicated in blue in both the video and the rendering, but it pulled into the lane to the right. Around here, that’s not even a thing. A driver turning left in that exact situation may turn into any open lane, no lane being favored over any others. Lane markings and signage can change the parameters … but in an unmarked, unprotected left turn like the one in the video, the left-turn car may freely proceed into any open lane. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/1709 "2024-03-27T19:58:08Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Around here, that’s not even a thing. Yep. Legal to end in any lane as long as it’s safe. [See](https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/handbook/california-driver-handbook/navigating-the-roads/): [![](https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/uploads/2020/05/Left_Turn_Two_Way_Street.png) ](https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/uploads/2020/05/Left_Turn_Two_Way_Street.png) Though they do _recommend_ ending in the close lane to reduce collision risk. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/1710 "2024-03-27T20:04:57Z")
I remember thinking this was odd way back in driver’s ed: on a right turn, you must turn into the right-most lane, but on a left turn, any lane is legal. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/1711 "2024-03-27T20:09:03Z")
It’s not legal in Arizona. Left turns need to be made into the lane nearest the centerline. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/1712 "2024-03-27T21:04:34Z")
Where is that the law? That’s crazy. Turning left from the right lane? It only happens when there are two lanes designated as left turn only. Otherwise, making a turn across traffic like that is dangerous and I’ve never seen it before. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/1713 "2024-03-27T21:10:28Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Turning left from the right lane? No, turning left _into_ the right lane (but only when there is a single left-turn lane). See my diagram above. Nothing particularly unsafe about it, but it requires extra awareness. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/1714 "2024-03-27T21:17:27Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Nothing particularly unsafe about it It’s dangerous for cars making a right turn from across the street, who presumably have the right-of-way, and should always be safe turning into the right-most lane. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/1715 "2024-03-27T21:22:31Z")
Hence the required extra awareness. If the left is unprotected, then the left-turning car must always yield to the oncoming car turning right. If it’s protected, then the reverse is true. You can’t safely perform a right-turn-on-red with an approaching car turning left since you can’t be confident which lane they’ll end up in. It’s basically just the same rules as if the other street had a single lane rather than two. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/1716 "2024-03-27T21:27:31Z")
Incidentally, FSD does follow the right-turn rule. I’ve had it in the situation where it needed to be in a left lane pretty quickly after the right, and it does just what a safe driver would do: turn into the right lane, but quickly do a series of left lane changes. Felt very comfortable, while being rapid enough not to miss the left turn. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/1717 "2024-03-27T21:49:00Z")
It must be regional. Around here, crossing directly into the right lane after a left turn is not allowed. You turn into the left lane, then signal right, then enter the right lane. Of course, lots of people DO just turn left into the right lane, but then lots of people turn without signalling, blow through stop signs, etc. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/1718 "2024-03-27T23:28:57Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > It’s not legal in Arizona. Left turns need to be made into the lane nearest the centerline. Same for WA and ID, the two states I drive in most. That’s why I brought it up. Didn’t know some states allow you to turn into any lane. You learn something new every day. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/1719 "2024-03-27T23:32:42Z")
Curious what they’ll do about the difference in laws. A disadvantage of the end-to-end approach is that there’s no longer some line of code you can edit that allows/disallows some behavior. It has to infer it from the data. They could have per-state models. But maybe they could feed the location into the training data and it would figure out the difference on its own. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2024, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/1720 "2024-03-28T00:30:08Z")
Wouldn’t it be cool if we had more universal traffic laws in the US? If I were Dictator-for-a-Day, Trump style, I’d make the Idaho Stop law legal across the US. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2024, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/1721 "2024-03-28T01:26:21Z")
Speaking of left turns, I did have to correct FSD last night. FSD put me in the outer lane of a double left turn lane, but it tried to turn to the left most lane of the cross street. It was dark, and any lane markings in the turn had worn away. However, the correct turn lane would have been obvious to any aware driver. It didn’t almost cause an accident, because the only other car was ahead of me, but it was indisputably trying to do the wrong thing. On the bright side, the drive home from Denver this afternoon went very well. Nav wisely sent us on surface streets to avoid extremely congested 270. FSD handled narrow urban streets with heavy traffic without issue, including some awkward intersections. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2024, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/1722 "2024-03-28T02:35:41Z")
I believe CO is similar to WA or ID where you turn into the nearest lane, and if you are in a multi-left lane, you stick to your lane. So, Tesla tried to get you to break the law beyond being the wrong thing. I’m looking forward to trying FSD 12 on my normal routes which will never, or rarely include divided highways. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2024, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/1723 "2024-03-28T11:15:30Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > FSD needs a fair amount of tweaks here and there. I just consider it part of FSD driving and it keeps me engaged which is safer. With me at the wheel, it’s still much easier than “real” driving and safer for the rest of humanity. I have zero experience with FSD, but reading this thread makes it seem nuch less easy than real driving. As I read about all these episodes which you call minor tweaks, I cringe and tense my muscles . It feels like a parent sitting on the side, in the passenger seat, watching his 16 year old son take the wheel as a student driver… I’m constantly on edge, worrying that he is about to screw up any moment, and in some scary, totally unpredictable way. Driving 17 mph instead of 30, misjudging left turns, slowing down suddenly due to shadows,and all at random… it doesn’t seem relaxing to me. Maybe in a couple decades… ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2024, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/1724 "2024-03-28T13:58:39Z")
That’s not even close to my experience. For me it’s significantly less stressful but I hate driving and I’m not a good driver. A good driver who loves to drive won’t like it at all. These interventions are very rare. I had no idea until I took a test drive. If you have time and it’s convenient, you should do one. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2024, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/1725 "2024-03-28T14:06:54Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > A good driver who loves to drive won’t like it at all. These interventions are very rare. I had no idea until I took a test drive. If you have time and it’s convenient, you should do one. Ahh…that’s the thing. Me, I enjoy driving. A lot. (I only buy stick shifts). And I want to drive a car, not a computer. 🙂 This automatic driving stuff is for the next generation’s kids.(who should stay off my lawn.) ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2024, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/1726 "2024-03-28T14:09:25Z")
You for sure would hate it but you’d hate being a passenger with me at the wheel more. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2024, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499/1727 "2024-03-28T15:26:30Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > It feels like a parent sitting on the side, in the passenger seat, watching his 16 year old son take the wheel as a student driver… I’m constantly on edge, worrying that he is about to screw up any moment, and in some scary, totally unpredictable way. That is how I often describe it. The poorly performing v11.x was very much like that, with somewhat unpredictable incorrect decisions. Such as getting in right turn lanes when the route says to go straight, or signaling for curves in the road. v12 seems much better at avoiding those mistakes. I’d mostly stopped using v11.x, because it was just too annoying, and often seemed to take more effort than just driving myself. v12 absolutely still requires minding, but without the constant concern that it is going to randomly make a left turn. It is progress, but I still think the leap from “I need to pay attention, but it mostly gets it” to “I can take a nap” is huge, and possibly will take decades. > [@chappachula](#): > > (I only buy stick shifts). And I want to drive a car, not a computer. I drove a stick for a long time, and I liked the increased engagement it brought to driving, but at some point no amount of being a driver’s car is going to make a rush hour commute more fun. For those types of things decreasing annoyance is more important than increasing fun, and driver aids help with that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499.md?page=85) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-driving-cars-are-still-decades-away/798499.md?page=87)