# Self-esteem week, I seethe at thee with the hate of hot coffee **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 17, 2007, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-esteem-week-i-seethe-at-thee-with-the-hate-of-hot-coffee/400469 "2007-04-17T14:17:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-esteem-week-i-seethe-at-thee-with-the-hate-of-hot-coffee/400469/41 "2007-04-17T21:16:29Z")
[QUOTE=tdn] Here at the hospital we see far more men than women. More than 4:1. Of course, that could just mean that more women want to do something about their weight. [/QUOTE] Or women feel more pressure to be slimmer. After all, TV teaches us that shlubby guys can still get slim hot chicks so why should men have to lose weight? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ForumBot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee59a6/32.png) [@ForumBot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ForumBot)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-esteem-week-i-seethe-at-thee-with-the-hate-of-hot-coffee/400469/42 "2007-04-17T21:19:16Z")
[QUOTE=Caridwen] I’m still trying to figure out why \*\*ForumBot \*\* is pitting women and giving men a pass. [/QUOTE] Because the sign was targeted to women, not men. Come on now, try harder. Accuse me of giving fat kitties and fluffy bunnies a pass while you’re at it. Have the gravitas to swear at me! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-esteem-week-i-seethe-at-thee-with-the-hate-of-hot-coffee/400469/43 "2007-04-17T21:19:42Z")
**Kimstu** nails it in one. ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-esteem-week-i-seethe-at-thee-with-the-hate-of-hot-coffee/400469/44 "2007-04-17T21:36:11Z")
You’d have a point, except you don’t. Statistically the average woman is far healthier than the beauty ideal. In fact women of “average” weights have about the lowest mortality rates of all BMI groups. That’s because when you plot BMI against mortality you get a U-shaped curve, with higher mortality rates at the underweight and at the obesity range. [See this chart](http://www.thedietdiary.com/diet/healthIndex/pics/BMI_WhiteAndBlackAbs.gif) from [this page](http://www.thedietdiary.com/diet/healthIndex/BMI.html). The average woman, is 140 lbs and 5’4" which brings her to a BMI of 24. If you look at mortality curve, that’s about dead center of the low point of U. i.e. with about the lowest mortality rate. The average model, which is held up as the ideal, has a BMI of under 18, which puts her in the underweight category with a statistically high mortality rate, equalling rates found in obesity, and exceeding rates found in morbid obesity in the case of black women. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-esteem-week-i-seethe-at-thee-with-the-hate-of-hot-coffee/400469/45 "2007-04-17T22:09:52Z")
[QUOTE=tdn] OK, I see your point. I don’t entirely agree, but I understand where you are coming from. [/quote] Good, I don’t think we are far apart as I first suspected. I suppose my point regarding the flaws of the self esteem movement boils down to this: Positive reinforcement is good, (which is why your choice B is the best) but so called “negative” emotions are perhaps just as important in order to improve yourself. For example, I’ll give you my none to nuanced response to your hypothetical. D: “Johnny, you know I love you, but this F disappoints me. I know you’re capable of doing better. Next time let’s go for an A… or else you’re grounded.” > [@tdn](#): > > And my words were not weaselly. You were very very wrong about that. 🙂 That’s pretty damn clever in context. Apologies._::tips hat to **tdn** ::_🙂 > [@Kimstu](#): > > The point is not that you should believe that you’re just totally perfect as you are and lose interest in striving for improvement. Rather, the point is that you should overcome the temptation to believe that you’re ugly and worthless just because you’re less than perfect. I sure as Hell can’t argue with that. But I was never really saying that women should feel bad about being fat. I tried, and apparently failed, to illustrate that with my Kirstie Ally example. Maybe she’s just doing it for the money, but I like her self confident attitude about her weight. She _does_ seem to feel remorse about letting herself go, but doesn’t think she’s less of a person. That’s the type of message that needs to be put forth more. “Yes, you’re a good person, but no, you are _not_ fine when it comes to the risks you incur with your weight.” Not “_Real_ women are overweight. So you’re fine!” I was ranting about the mentality behind **forumbot’s** University’s billboard and other similar “self esteem programs”. These programs imply that there is nothing wrong when there actually is, and the billboard implied that there was nothing wrong with being overweight, when obviously there are health issues. **uglybeech** , I assume you weren’t addressing me regarding the beauty ideal. I thought I covered that, but fashion models are not, and have never been, the beauty ideal. Stop using the fashion models as a scapegoat. I haven’t read it, but I doubt that too many of People magazines 100 most beautiful people were size 2 fashion models. Believe me, a size 2 is NOT sexy - my girlfriends a size 9. I don’t know what a size 14 woman’s BMI would be (that’s the size on the billboard in question), but I suspect it’s in the overweight section of your chart. Your link goes to some knitting site, though. ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-esteem-week-i-seethe-at-thee-with-the-hate-of-hot-coffee/400469/46 "2007-04-17T22:29:35Z")
[QUOTE=A Monkey With a Gun] **uglybeech** , I assume you weren’t addressing me regarding the beauty ideal. I thought I covered that, but fashion models are not, and have never been, the beauty ideal. Stop using the fashion models as a scapegoat. I haven’t read it, but I doubt that too many of People magazines 100 most beautiful people were size 2 fashion models. Believe me, a size 2 is NOT sexy - my girlfriends a size 9. I don’t know what a size 14 woman’s BMI would be (that’s the size on the billboard in question), but I suspect it’s in the overweight section of your chart. Your link goes to some knitting site, though. [/QUOTE] Assuming a size 14 equates to 5’4" and 140 lbs (which is actually the average) then no, it’s not in the overweight. It’s in the normal range barely. But it’s about at the nadir of the morality curve. My point is not just that fashion models are unhealthy. My point is that average is perfectly healthy. And yeah I missed that the graphic link is blocked. You can just scroll down the bottom of hte page of the site I linked to where the swiped the graphs out of the NEJM.[here](http://www.thedietdiary.com/diet/healthIndex/BMI.html) Or go to the [actual NEJM article](http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/341/15/1097), but I think you need a NEJM subscription. ---
**Author:** ![Caridwen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c89c15/32.png) [@Caridwen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caridwen)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-esteem-week-i-seethe-at-thee-with-the-hate-of-hot-coffee/400469/47 "2007-04-17T22:53:43Z")
[QUOTE=ForumBot] Because the sign was targeted to women, not men. Come on now, try harder. Accuse me of giving fat kitties and fluffy bunnies a pass while you’re at it. Have the gravitas to swear at me! 😛 [/QUOTE] Nah, I won’t swear at you. Who is Self Esteem Week targeting, all women? You mentioned bulimia in your first post. I have to tell you that I suffered from an eating disorder when I was that age and I was thin but far from healthy. I know that heavier women were healthier than I was because I was slowly killing myself. It’s pretty serious. I’m not big on catch phrases either, but I guess the point is to get these women to realize that there is no ‘ideal’. I had terrible self esteem because I had such an unrealistic vision of how I looked and how I wanted to look. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-esteem-week-i-seethe-at-thee-with-the-hate-of-hot-coffee/400469/48 "2007-04-17T22:56:17Z")
[QUOTE=redtail23] Hint: “real women”, i.e., normal women, have hips and boobs and a certain amount of bodyfat, unlike super-models. [/QUOTE] This is what I really hate. If they just said “normal” women, which means nothing more than the middle of the bell curve, I’d be okay with that. But they say “real” women. Are you telling me that [Susanna Kallur](http://www.friidrottshogskolan.com/bild/sanna_golden_stor.jpg) is not a real woman? I don’t want to have to fight yez. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-esteem-week-i-seethe-at-thee-with-the-hate-of-hot-coffee/400469/49 "2007-04-17T23:19:42Z")
[QUOTE=uglybeech] Assuming a size 14 equates to 5’4" and 140 lbs (which is actually the average) then no, it’s not in the overweight. It’s in the normal range barely. But it’s about at the nadir of the morality curve. My point is not just that fashion models are unhealthy. My point is that average is perfectly healthy. [/QUOTE] Huh. I guess I don’t know women’s dress sizes. I thought a size 14 was much bigger than that. 5’4" and 140lbs may be on the chunky side, but it ain’t obese. Could be pretty damn sexy on the right woman, too. Go figure. My points in this thread were more about the pitfalls regarding the self esteem movement, but it occurs to me that if **forumbot’s** billboard was only saying that 140 lb women are perfectly healthy, then I don’t have a problem with that what so ever. I was envisioning a lot bigger than that. One funny thing, though. **Uglybeech** , I don’t believe that size 14 women have lower morals than other women, and I think you are dead wrong in saying so. (You left out the “t” in “mortality”)😃 ---
**Author:** ![Caridwen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c89c15/32.png) [@Caridwen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caridwen)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-esteem-week-i-seethe-at-thee-with-the-hate-of-hot-coffee/400469/50 "2007-04-17T23:32:53Z")
[QUOTE=A Monkey With a Gun] Huh. I guess I don’t know women’s dress sizes. I thought a size 14 was much bigger than that. 5’4" and 140lbs may be on the chunky side, but it ain’t obese. Could be pretty damn sexy on the right woman, too. Go figure. My points in this thread were more about the pitfalls regarding the self esteem movement, but it occurs to me that if **forumbot’s** billboard was only saying that 140 lb women are perfectly healthy, then I don’t have a problem with that what so ever. I was envisioning a lot bigger than that. One funny thing, though. **Uglybeech** , I don’t believe that size 14 women have lower morals than other women, and I think you are dead wrong in saying so. (You left out the “t” in “mortality”)😃 [/QUOTE] Go to Lands End [http://landsend.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?store=le&action=newSearch&search=model&sid=2798195556228174180](http://landsend.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?store=le&action=newSearch&search=model&sid=2798195556228174180) Click on Virtual Model Model for Women Personalize add the height & weight and you’ll see what 5’4 140 lbs looks like. ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-esteem-week-i-seethe-at-thee-with-the-hate-of-hot-coffee/400469/51 "2007-04-18T00:26:27Z")
[QUOTE=A Monkey With a Gun] but it occurs to me that if **forumbot’s** billboard was only saying that 140 lb women are perfectly healthy, then I don’t have a problem with that what so ever. I was envisioning a lot bigger than that. One funny thing, though. **Uglybeech** , I don’t believe that size 14 women have lower morals than other women, and I think you are dead wrong in saying so. (You left out the “t” in “mortality”)😃 [/QUOTE] Meh, I only had data that they’re healthy. Whether they’re torturing puppies and mugging little old ladies…they’re going to have to defend themselves on that issue. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-esteem-week-i-seethe-at-thee-with-the-hate-of-hot-coffee/400469/52 "2007-04-18T05:17:14Z")
Sense we seem to have reached detente, I want to add one thing I should have in my first response to this thread. **ForumBot** , the first paragraph of your OP is fucking beautiful. > [@ForumBot](#): > > My rage does not burn with the fire of a thousand suns. Nor does my hateful glare mutate into gamma radiation strong enough to give The Thing a boner. No, my annoyance simmers with the heat of a strong cup of coffee. But be warned! This coffee is too warm to drink, you will have to wait AT LEAST TEN MINUTES before drinking it! Nonetheless, from hell’s appendix I poke at thee, and wish upon thee an uncomfortable rash to be cleared up within not more than two days time. “from Hell’s appendix I poke at thee” One of the funnier thing I’ve read on this board. Classic. ---
**Author:** ![SurrenderDorothy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/surrenderdorothy/32/1221_2.png) [@SurrenderDorothy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SurrenderDorothy)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-esteem-week-i-seethe-at-thee-with-the-hate-of-hot-coffee/400469/53 "2007-04-18T05:26:13Z")
Why does “self esteem” always have to equal weight and looks for girls? I mean, to eat or not to eat and to indulge in sweets as opposed to carrots or to take an hour out of every day to exercise… how does that have any bearing on the value of a person? That’s the biggest problem I see. When girls are told, “you’re worth something” the message is “you’re beautiful and your body is perfect.” not, “so you’re a little homely. But do you have any idea what Marie Curie looked like? Would you want Rosa Parks modeling clothes for you? In 20 years, will your children know Lindsay Lohan the way I know Sally Ride?” … when people worry about boys’ self-esteem, it’s a matter of whether he’ll have the strength to succeed. When people worry about girls, it’s a matter of trying to make sure she doesn’t starve herself to death. And it’s empty and meaningless because a girl who will starve herself is not a girl who wants to be a “real woman” anyway. I mean, at least in my case- a “real woman” is someone who is vivacious and fills the room with personality and energy, where I feel unable to fill a body like that. I only have enough self for a small body. “real women” are sexy and I don’t want to be sexy. The very sad fact is that it really never occurred to me until very recently that my body is not who I am. I’m a dancer, which means my body is my art form. I’m an anorexic, which means my body has been the subject of a lot of scrutiny, measurement, and discussion and is the center of my life in a lot of ways. I hear over and over again things like, “you’d look much prettier if you put on about 30 lb” or “you know boys don’t like girls that thin.” or, “look in the mirror and tell yourself you’re beautiful.” and what I really needed to realize was… it doesn’t matter. Looks are something you either have or you don’t. It’s luck, not a reflection on who you are. And sure, you can control yuor weight, but that doesn’t benefit anyone, least of all myself. I can also control how hard I work in school, the way I deal with people, and the good deeds I do. Being needless is alright, but again… it benefits people way less than it would if I just ate a sandwich and then had the energy to go work with Habitat for Humanity. It took me almost sixteen years to figure this out and, although it’s certainly not a magic cure, I think… you know… someone could have pointed it out to me earlier. “you’d look pretty with some meat on you” means nothing to me, but “would you rather be an Ashley Olsen or a Harriet Tubman?” … that makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-esteem-week-i-seethe-at-thee-with-the-hate-of-hot-coffee/400469/54 "2007-04-18T05:31:39Z")
[QUOTE=alice\_in\_wonderland] Oh dear. [/QUOTE] I know… it’s ok if you puke. All of us puke the first time… hell, if you don’t, it means you’re not human. But after a while you get used to it. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-esteem-week-i-seethe-at-thee-with-the-hate-of-hot-coffee/400469/55 "2007-04-18T06:56:56Z")
Damn, **Turnip**. What the Living Fuck? No… No. No. NoNoNoNo! **SurrenderDorothy** , hang in there. You’ve already realized the first thing to becoming a better person: Your body is not the only thing about you. It does not define you. If you can permit me to be a bit benignly crass, go eat a damn cheeseburger. The brain needs calories to think, and a dancer needs them to perform. I know some anonymous guy on a message board isn’t the best place to get advice, but EAT! Look at Charlize Theron. That’s a woman who is built like a dancer and she EATS! I don’t know your body type, but I’ve known a few professional ballet dancers (well, only two but I dated one) and they will scarf down a steak faster than I can. Protein builds muscle, and they sure as hell need it. Dancing is athletic, and you need the calories to do it. So eat something and hit the gym. Your body isn’t who you are, but dancing is your job so EAT! If you are going to dance seriously, DON’T DIET! You need muscle, and only food and exercise is going to build that muscle mass. As to your brain, and again take some anonymous guy’s advice on a message board with a grain of salt, you need food for that too. Seeing how it was just about a century before my time I obviously wasn’t there, but I wouldn’t surprised if Marie Curie was a holy terror to Pierre when her blood sugar was low. He probably made her sandwiches just to keep her genius level running. So, **Dorothy** , you are the corollary to what I have argued in this thread. The exception that proves the rule. You need encouragement more than anything else. And from where I’m standing, your post seems like it is written by somebody who is going to do just fine. Maybe you’re a little down right now, but you seem to have the intelligence and wherewithal to know where you’re at. Now go eat a damn hoagie while reading your favorite book, get some sleep, and hit the gym tomorrow. We all have work to do in order to improve ourselves. That shit’s never easy. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-esteem-week-i-seethe-at-thee-with-the-hate-of-hot-coffee/400469/56 "2007-04-18T07:44:11Z")
Goddamn, I’m an idiot. **Dorothy** , I think I missed the mark on quite a few things in my above post. You have my sincerest apologies. How can me telling you to eat possibly help when you are complaining that people already tell you that too much? I guess it was a knee jerk reaction regarding your anorexia. I hope you know that I meant well, but damnit, I just fucked up there. I’m sorry, and I wish you well. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-esteem-week-i-seethe-at-thee-with-the-hate-of-hot-coffee/400469/57 "2007-04-18T07:53:41Z")
Actually, if you read _all_ of that Florida State University study that you linked to, you will read that self esteem _is_ helpful in a couple of important ways: > [@](#): > > The researchers found that high self-esteem reduces the chances of bulimia in girls and women. The researchers also concluded that high self-esteem helps make people happy and may promote acting on one’s own initiative. There is nothing wrong with self-esteem that has been earned. And there is nothing wrong with letting go of _guilt_ and, instead, accepting responsibility. They are two different things. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-esteem-week-i-seethe-at-thee-with-the-hate-of-hot-coffee/400469/58 "2007-04-18T14:04:13Z")
[QUOTE=A Monkey With a Gun] **SurrenderDorothy** , hang in there. You’ve already realized the first thing to becoming a better person: Your body is not the only thing about you. It does not define you. [/QUOTE] Well dayum. I guess we really do agree. The quoted bit is what I’ve been trying to say all along. And thanks for your kind post at the end of page one. 🙂 “you’d look pretty with some meat on you” means nothing to me, but “would you rather be an Ashley Olsen or a Harriet Tubman?” This is something that I’m starting to come back to with the whole self-esteem thing. Let’s see if I can explain it without tasting my own toes yet again: Be your own hero. Be your own role model. If you admire Harriet Tubman, then be Harriet Tubman and admire yourself. Live in accord with your own ideals and appreciate yourself for it. Maybe I should give an example. Two months ago me and my GF broke up. Naturally, I felt pretty bad about it. But the worst feeling was that I need to find another girlfriend or I won’t be happy. I miss the companionship, I miss the sex, but mostly I miss kissing. Almost immediately, I wallpapered the web with personals, and I’ve asked out one very special woman, and she turned me down. The personals have turned up zip. It seems there is no one for poor tdn. Happiness has run out on me. So what do I do? How do I fix the hopeless? How can I force a woman to like me? The thing is, I can’t. But there is one thing I can do – become more sexy and likeable. I accept my faults for what they are, and change the faults I can. I’m old, bald, and fat. Can’t do much about the old, can’t do much about the bald. But I’m doing something about the fat. I sweat like a politician every night, and I love it. Even if I never get into great shape, I love the process of trying. And I’m developing my hobbies, one of which is art. I may never be the next Picasso, but I’m getting better every day. I love that about myself. I love my entertainments, I love my politics, I love my intellect. I love my life. And a few days ago, I realized something: I’m not lonely. I love spending time alone with the one person who has the power to make me happy (or sad) all the time. The one person I’m forced to live with every second of my life. No other person in the world will ever have the capacity to appreciate me more than I can. And I can meet all of my own emotional needs. I have become my own hero, and my own best friend. I’m happy. And now for the punchline: Yesterday, the Very Special woman that rejected me asked me out for a semi-quasi-date-like thing. And that’s great. I like her, but I certainly don’t need her. I can provide my own happiness. Sorry for the early morning senseless ramble. I’m not quite awake yet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-esteem-week-i-seethe-at-thee-with-the-hate-of-hot-coffee/400469.md?page=2)