# Self-identifying and organizing by race - except for whites **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2009, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201 "2009-12-22T16:22:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/21 "2009-12-22T18:56:09Z")
> [@TGWATY](#): > > This is an interesting question. Sort of a re-phrasing of my original question. > > Why is it automatically considered racist when whites express any concern at all about the interests of whites but it is not racist for other groups to aggressively campaign for their own benefits? Can you give an example of a “white interest?” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/22 "2009-12-22T18:57:13Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Can you give an example of a “white interest?” Rolling back affirmative action for minorities. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/23 "2009-12-22T19:00:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, any group that is organized around nothing but being a member of a given race is racist. Which is why it’s stupid to compare “white” groups to minority ethnic groups. ---
**Author:** ![filling\_pages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9bd4f/32.png) [@filling\_pages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filling_pages)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/24 "2009-12-22T19:02:05Z")
> [@TGWATY](#): > > For instance, suppose I start an organization whose purpose is to help white kids who are struggling in school. Well, there are in fact thousands of white kids who are struggling in school. What’s wrong with helping them? Nothing, of course. It’s that I am singling out white kids that would bug people–_even if they are in fact needy_. > > But if I did the same for blacks or latinos, most people would think nothing of it. Are the difficulties faced by these white kids based on their race? If not, why restrict your efforts by race? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/25 "2009-12-22T19:02:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Rolling back affirmative action for minorities. How is that a white interest, and why is it necessary to serve that interest? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/26 "2009-12-22T19:04:26Z")
> [@TGWATY](#): > > For instance, suppose I start an organization whose purpose is to help white kids who are struggling in school. Well, there are in fact thousands of white kids who are struggling in school. What’s wrong with helping them? Nothing, of course. It’s that I am singling out white kids that would bug people–_even if they are in fact needy_. I don’t think anyone would give a shit, actually. Knock yourself out. It’s kind of a retarded idea, but no one’s going to stop you. ---
**Author:** ![TGWATY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5e925/32.png) [@TGWATY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TGWATY)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/27 "2009-12-22T19:06:34Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t think anyone would give a shit, actually. Knock yourself out. It’s kind of a retarded idea, but no one’s going to stop you. Well that’s one towel thrown in. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/28 "2009-12-22T19:08:35Z")
What does that mean? What am I surrendering? ---
**Author:** ![TGWATY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5e925/32.png) [@TGWATY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TGWATY)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/29 "2009-12-22T19:10:59Z")
> [@filling\_pages](#): > > Are the difficulties faced by these white kids based on their race? If not, why restrict your efforts by race? When is someone’s difficulty in school ever based on race? Why restrict efforts based on race? Yes. Good question. Google “helping minorities school” > **[Google Search](https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=helping+minorities+school&aq=f&oq=&aqi=)** A lot of these say “low-income” minorities. why not just low-income people? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/30 "2009-12-22T19:13:47Z")
> [@TGWATY](#): > > When is someone’s difficulty in school ever based on race? This is a serious question? > [@](#): > > Why restrict efforts based on race? Yes. Good question. > > Google “helping minorities school” > [Google Search](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=helping+minorities+school&aq=f&oq=&aqi=) > > A lot of these say “low-income” minorities. why not just low-income people? This isn’t a cite, it’s a Google search result. Can you show a specific organization which excludes help based on race? ---
**Author:** ![TGWATY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5e925/32.png) [@TGWATY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TGWATY)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/31 "2009-12-22T19:16:41Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What does that mean? What am I surrendering? Name-calling usually means that. You don’t need me to tell you that whether my proposal is retarded or not is irrelevant. The point has to do with what our society considers allowed for some groups and not allowed for others. And just who is allowed to do what is based on race.. the “not-allowed” group being whites. The fact that discussing this situation, even just illuminating it, usually provokes some hostility, is also one of things which I find puzzling. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/32 "2009-12-22T19:18:47Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > How is that a white interest, Because AA for minorities does not help whites. It can be argues that it hurts whites. (You might not agree that it hurts whites, but that would be an opinion, not a fact.) > [@](#): > > and why is it necessary to serve that interest? It isn’t necessary. Why should it have to be? That wasn’t in the post I was responding to. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/33 "2009-12-22T19:20:35Z")
It’s hard to think of there being a unified “white culture” when you’re in an older Great Lakes, Rust Belt or Northeastern city (in the United States, pedants!), where the descendants of immigrants who came to the country 80 to 150 years ago still very strongly identify themselves with whatever “old country” their great great grandparents came from. The cultures, values and mores of those hyphenated-American groups in older industrial cities are all quite distinct from each other; the only common element may be traditional Catholicism and regional cultural quirks. There’s a huge world of difference between a stereotypical “white” person, say, a textbook Prairie Home Companion-style Lutheran from St. Cloud, Minnesota, and an Italian-American from Rochester or Erie. There’s a huge difference between an Italian-American from Buffalo and a Polish-American from Buffalo; they’re both probably very observant Catholics who are Bills fans, but even their accents will be different. ---
**Author:** ![TGWATY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5e925/32.png) [@TGWATY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TGWATY)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/34 "2009-12-22T19:22:51Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > When is someone’s difficulty in school ever based on race? > > This is a serious question? I can’t tell if you mean “of course it is never based on race, so why ask?” or “of course it is sometimes based on race, so why ask?” I was suggesting that race has nothing to do with whether one is struggling in school. The authors of the _The Bell Curve_ might disagree with me though. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/35 "2009-12-22T19:26:41Z")
> [@TGWATY](#): > > Name-calling usually means that. What _position_ do you think I was surrendering? What _position_ do you believe I “threw in the towel” on? > [@](#): > > You don’t need me to tell you that whether my proposal is retarded or not is irrelevant. What other issue is there? There isn’t any _legal_ issue, only an argument about what people will respect and not respect. > [@](#): > > The point has to do with what our society considers allowed for some groups and not allowed for others. And just who is allowed to do what is based on race.. the “not-allowed” group being whites. You are “allowed” to do anything what you want. Your premise that anything is _not_ allowed is complete bullshit. > [@](#): > > The fact that discussing this situation, even just illuminating it, usually provokes some hostility, is also one of things which I find puzzling. What hostility have you seen? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/36 "2009-12-22T19:31:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Because AA for minorities does not help whites. It can be argues that it hurts whites. (You might not agree that it hurts whites, but that would be an opinion, not a fact.) Well, then it’s only your opinion that AA runs counter to white interest, so it isn’t much of an example. > [@](#): > > It isn’t necessary. Why should it have to be? That wasn’t in the post I was responding to. If it isn’t necessary, and it’s just a gratuitous attempt to promote “white” interests above non-white, then the OP’s question answers itself as to why groups centered around self-proclaimed “white interests” are perceived as racist – it’s because they _are_ racist. It’s not a question of perception. They are self-identified as racist. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/37 "2009-12-22T19:34:11Z")
> [@TGWATY](#): > > I can’t tell if you mean “of course it is never based on race, so why ask?” or “of course it is sometimes based on race, so why ask?” > > I was suggesting that race has nothing to do with whether one is struggling in school. The authors of the _The Bell Curve_ might disagree with me though. Well, race has historically had a lot to do with whether an individual is able to access higher education (and whether they can even get a decent bases education), but all things being equal, race has nothing to do with one’s inherent ability to succeed academically, which is why your proposal to help stupid white kids in school would be retarded. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/38 "2009-12-22T19:38:24Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Well, then it’s only your opinion that AA runs counter to white interest, so it isn’t much of an example. Every political stance is an opinion. > [@](#): > > If it isn’t necessary, and it’s just a gratuitous attempt to promote “white” interests above non-white, then the OP’s question answers itself as to why groups centered around self-proclaimed “white interests” are perceived as racist – it’s because they _are_ racist. It’s not a question of perception. They are self-identified as racist. False dichotomy. Just because something isn’t “necessary” doesn’t make it “gratuitous”. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/39 "2009-12-22T19:42:02Z")
Yes it does. That’s the meaning of the word, “gratuitous.” Can you name an example of a group concerned about “white interests” which you would say is not racist? ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/40 "2009-12-22T19:47:15Z")
> [@TGWATY](#): > > But now that I am an atheist, all bets are off. I am in a sort of moral/ethical vacuum. Your moral compass may be spinning out of control but please don’t drag the rest of us into this Christian fantasy that only followers of Jesus can be moral. End of hijack. If the population of the USofA was 60% white and 40% black and black folks decided to organize black only clubs and professional societies - that would be racist and I think whites would be justified in organizing similar groups. It would be hard to compete otherwise. But that isn’t how it is. The US is something like 75% “white” and maybe 10-12% of each of the other groups you list. A white-only organization is saying “everybody can join except these few” by its very nature. If I were in China I might join an ex-pat club of Americans, just to be able to have some folks similar to myself to hang out with. That wouldn’t mean that I hate Chinese people, it just means I want to hang out with people like myself sometimes. Maybe a little racist, but then we all are. Forming professional groups around racial lines is racists at its core; how can it not be? If a group of black people agree to only do business with each other then they are basically denying whites their business. But … and this is a big but IMO … This is sometimes necessary in a racist society. If whites favor other whites, even a little, then that leaves minority groups at a huge disadvantage simply because of the numbers. If you want to form a whites-only club you can do it, but you won’t get me to join. I want to join something that doesn’t let just anybody in. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201.md?page=3)