# Self-identifying and organizing by race - except for whites **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2009, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201 "2009-12-22T16:22:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/41 "2009-12-22T19:51:07Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Yes it does. That’s the meaning of the word, “gratuitous.” No. One definition is “unnecessary”, but “unnecessary” is not necessarily the same as “not necessary”. “Necessary” presupposes a purpose, which has not been defined. Necessary for what? Survival? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/42 "2009-12-22T19:52:20Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Can you name an example of a group concerned about “white interests” which you would say is not racist? The group of CT firefighters in the recent SCOTUS AA case. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/43 "2009-12-22T19:55:15Z")
You’re actually going to try to parse a distinction between “unnecessary,” and “not necessary?” Let’s ditch “necessary,” and just ask what would be the _motivation_ for any group wishing to promote “white interests?” Can you give an example of a real group which promotes “white interests” which you would not consider racist? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/44 "2009-12-22T19:57:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The group of CT firefighters in the recent SCOTUS AA case. That had nothing to do with any expressed intent to promote “white interests,” it was a discrimination suit, and if I recall correctly, not all the plaintiffs were even white. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/45 "2009-12-22T20:02:13Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That had nothing to do with any expressed intent to promote “white interests,” it was a discrimination suit, and if I recall correctly, not all the plaintiffs were even white. Rolling back AA can be viewed as a “white interest”. No reason “white interests” can’t incidentally help other groups as well. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/46 "2009-12-22T20:08:07Z")
If it does, then it’s not really a white interest. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/47 "2009-12-22T20:13:39Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That had nothing to do with any expressed intent to promote “white interests,” it was a discrimination suit, and if I recall correctly, not all the plaintiffs were even white. Step #1 “White interests are racist!” Step #2 “That’s not a true white interest because it isn’t racist!” Ad Infinitum ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/48 "2009-12-22T20:18:32Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > Step #1 “White interests are racist!” Name one that isn’t. > [@](#): > > Step #2 “That’s not a true white interest because it isn’t racist!” It isn’t a white interest if there’s nothing about that’s exclusive to whites. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/49 "2009-12-22T20:45:50Z")
I think it’s funny how many concepts are being misused. First of all, of course there are white people here in America with a common background. Most of us are mutts and don’t identify with “the old country” because we have several “old countries” in our background. We identify as white, not French American or Italian American or whatever American. Second, French, Italian, Irish, or whatever are **nationalities** , not ethnicities. Technically Hispanic isn’t an ethnicity, it’s a cultural identity, but we treat it as an ethnicity here anyway. And saying that it’s OK for every group but whites to join together based on ethnicity, or nationality, or whatever is BS. Well, it’s BS if you believe in true equality, as in treating everybody equally. I guess it’s different if you believe in double standards. So, to answer the OP’s questions: **(1) Is it ok for people for organize by race? e.g., unions of hispanic engineering students or east asian plumbers. If no, why not? (2) If so, is it ok for white people to similarly self identify and organize along those lines? If no, why not?** I’m a huge believer in equality with no double standards, so if it’s OK for minorities then it should be OK for white people, and if it’s not OK for white people then it should not be OK for minorities. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/50 "2009-12-22T21:44:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > it’s ok for people to organize around anything they want, but “white” isn’t really analogous to something like “Hispanic” or Jewish," because it doesn’t really mean anything. “White” is not an ethnicity or a culture. There’s nothing to share. I think a more accurate caucasian analogue to groups like that would be organizations based on some more specific identification – Irish, or Italian or Lutheran, for instance – something more meaningful than “not dark-skinned.” It’s hard for that to be anything but stupid. Yea, I only hang out with Scotch-Irish Borderers and Anglos! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/51 "2009-12-22T21:57:38Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > it’s ok for people to organize around anything they want, but “white” isn’t really analogous to something like “Hispanic” or Jewish," because it doesn’t really mean anything. “White” is not an ethnicity or a culture. There’s nothing to share. I think a more accurate caucasian analogue to groups like that would be organizations based on some more specific identification – Irish, or Italian or Lutheran, for instance – something more meaningful than “not dark-skinned.” It’s hard for that to be anything but stupid. Hang on a second there- I don’t think you have your facts straight. I’m as “white” as they come- I’m not Irish, Scottish, English, French, German, etc… at least not enough to really feel like I have a claim. What I am is an American- a white one from Texas. I think that the “lack” of ethnicity is part of the issue at question here- folks like you say that I have no ethnicity or culture, because I don’t claim a particular European nation as my own. I see no reason that a club like that would be particularly offensive, if presented in the proper context. Obviously the “White Engineers Club- no Negroes Allowed” wouldn’t fly, and rightly so. But I don’t see a reason that White = no ethnicity or no culture, and why “white” people shouldn’t celebrate their culture. And let’s not go into pages of dumb-ass arguments about white culture = oppression, and how Whitey is keeping the black man down or whatever. That stuff doesn’t get anyone anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/52 "2009-12-22T22:06:15Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Hang on a second there- I don’t think you have your facts straight. I’m as “white” as they come- I’m not Irish, Scottish, English, French, German, etc… at least not enough to really feel like I have a claim. > > What I am is an American- a white one from Texas. > > I think that the “lack” of ethnicity is part of the issue at question here- folks like you say that I have no ethnicity or culture, because I don’t claim a particular European nation as my own. > > I see no reason that a club like that would be particularly offensive, if presented in the proper context. Obviously the “White Engineers Club- no Negroes Allowed” wouldn’t fly, and rightly so. But I don’t see a reason that White = no ethnicity or no culture, and why “white” people shouldn’t celebrate their culture. > > And let’s not go into pages of dumb-ass arguments about white culture = oppression, and how Whitey is keeping the black man down or whatever. That stuff doesn’t get anyone anywhere. Sure it does, it allows people to fulfill a prurient need to know that they are the defenders of the inferior races. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/53 "2009-12-22T22:55:31Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Hang on a second there- I don’t think you have your facts straight. I’m as “white” as they come- I’m not Irish, Scottish, English, French, German, etc… at least not enough to really feel like I have a claim. > > What I am is an American- a white one from Texas. > > I think that the “lack” of ethnicity is part of the issue at question here- folks like you say that I have no ethnicity or culture, because I don’t claim a particular European nation as my own. > > I see no reason that a club like that would be particularly offensive, if presented in the proper context. Obviously the “White Engineers Club- no Negroes Allowed” wouldn’t fly, and rightly so. But I don’t see a reason that White = no ethnicity or no culture, and why “white” people shouldn’t celebrate their culture. > > And let’s not go into pages of dumb-ass arguments about white culture = oppression, and how Whitey is keeping the black man down or whatever. That stuff doesn’t get anyone anywhere. There is no such thing as “white culture.” hence nothing to “celebrate.” ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/54 "2009-12-22T22:56:06Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This is a serious question? > > This isn’t a cite, it’s a Google search result. Can you show a specific organization which excludes help based on race? I am pretty damn sure the United Negro College fund would not have given me any college money even if I had asked for it…and you can probably guess the reason why… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/55 "2009-12-22T22:56:40Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yea, I only hang out with Scotch-Irish Borderers and Anglos! 😉 Where are you getting “only” from? Who said anything about “only?” ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/56 "2009-12-22T22:56:50Z")
> [@bump](#): > > What I am is an American- a white one from Texas. And, depending on how much you identify with your Texas heritage, the state has a collective culture that is as distinct as that of any hyphenated-American ethnic group found in the Northeast and Great Lakes region. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/57 "2009-12-22T22:58:12Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > There is no such thing as “white culture.” hence nothing to “celebrate.” Bah…we get to celebrate NOT get oppressed by white culture…to hear some “others” tell it its quite the thing to celebrate ! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/58 "2009-12-22T22:59:32Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > I am pretty damn sure the United Negro College fund would not have given me any college money even if I had asked for it…and you can probably guess the reason why… The UNCF grants scholarships to all ethnicities. Your assumptions are erroneous. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/59 "2009-12-22T23:00:54Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Bah…we get to celebrate NOT get oppressed by white culture…to hear some “others” tell it its quite the thing to celebrate ! I have no idea what this sentence is supposed to mean. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/60 "2009-12-22T23:07:15Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > IWe identify as white, not French American or Italian American or whatever American. We do? That’s news to me. Can you ghive me an example of white American culture? > [@](#): > > Second, French, Italian, Irish, or whatever are **nationalities** , not ethnicities. They clearly are ethnicities. I think maybe you don’t know what “ethnicity” means. > [@](#): > > Technically Hispanic isn’t an ethnicity, it’s a cultural identity, but we treat it as an ethnicity here anyway. What do you think “ethnicity” means? It does not require a genetic or “racial” component, if that’s what you think. > [@](#): > > And saying that it’s OK for every group but whites to join together based on ethnicity, or nationality, or whatever is BS. Who has said this? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201.md?page=4)