# Self-identifying and organizing by race - except for whites **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2009, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201 "2009-12-22T16:22:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/81 "2009-12-23T05:46:24Z")
There is no contradiction. Some of the programs are designed to help black kids, but that doesn’t mean they turn down white kids. As for “don’t pop off at the mouth,” it was based on your asserion that UNCF claims to discriminate on the basis of race. It claims just the opposite. That was still probably harsher than it needed to be. My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/82 "2009-12-23T06:52:17Z")
> [@meflin](#): > > [http://www.uncf.org/forstudents/scholarDetailSGA.asp?id=420](http://www.uncf.org/forstudents/scholarDetailSGA.asp?id=420) > > This scholarship is designed to provide financial support and Cisco internship opportunities for African American Electrical Engineering or Computer Science majors with a special focus on women and students who demonstrate community service. Applicants must have a minimum 3.20 GPA. > > “designed to” and “excluded from” are not quite the same .. but I would want to see a high burden of proof. The same level of proof I would want to see that “whitey scholarship” didn’t exclude. You have misunderstood the site to which you have linked. One task of UNCF is providing a clearing house for various scholarships. The page to which you linked is a Cisco scholarship, (not a UNCF college scholarship), that targets blacks. It is not estblished by a UNCF school, nor does it require attendance at a UNCF school. It is simply one scholarship among many that happens to be presented on a UNCF site. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/83 "2009-12-23T12:13:19Z")
Racist? Isn’t it possible to organize around the concept that another group is being treated preferentially and not assume that group is inferior? OTOH… the more that other group organizes itself the more it plays into the assumption that in many ways they are. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/84 "2009-12-23T17:50:03Z")
There are all kinds of special interests groups organized around culture. But what looks exclusive rarely tends to be. When I was a freshman in college, I attended a special six-week orientation program targeted at minorities. Most of us were black and Hispanic, but guess what? There were some white people who showed up too. My roommate was one of them. There are historically black colleges and universities that actually offer scholarships to white students. My sister attended one, and there were actually more white students in her program than black. And even those things that are exclusive don’t necessarily signify racism. A scholarship intended for black students, for instance, is no different than one intended for Catholic students or Jewish students. Are Jewish scholarships anti-Gentile? Furthermore, is one intended for rural Appalacian students unfair towards suburban or urban students? If you abolish one kind of group (one based on shared culture), it only seems fair to abolish all kinds of groups formed around shared interests (I say those nerds in Monty Python societies need to be dissolved right this instant!) Raising your ire at cultural/ethnic networking groups, but not religious or other kinds of groups seems a bit unfair. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/85 "2009-12-23T17:58:51Z")
Y’all are grasping at straws here - it is not necessary to _completely_ exclude a group in order for a system to be biased. People who argue that, for example, the SAT is racially biased don’t claim that no black student scores a 1600. As long as an organization gives favors to group A out of proportion to the its percentage of the population, that organization produces a net transfer from everyone else to group A. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/86 "2009-12-23T18:24:52Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Y’all are grasping at straws here - it is not necessary to _completely_ exclude a group in order for a system to be biased. People who argue that, for example, the SAT is racially biased don’t claim that no black student scores a 1600. As long as an organization gives favors to group A out of proportion to the its percentage of the population, that organization produces a net transfer from everyone else to group A. A net transfer of what? If I were to form an organization devoted to helping posters with usernames starting with “m” achieve their academic goals, then how am I taking anything away from everyone else? Especially if they can join up if they want to, just as long they respect the wonderfulness of the letter “m”? Again, going back to college. There was a math tutorial group that was largely run by black students. It was advertised throughout campus (not secret word-of-mouth) and everyone was invited to partake, although there was no hiding that it was sponsored by minority affairs (or something like that). I repeat, everyone could benefit from the tutorial program and it said so on the advertisements. But because it was a culturally-specific place for black students to study, and black students made up such a small fraction of the student body, they were the majority of the participants. I could see being upset if the program had signs up saying “No calculus help for whites and Asians, only the brothas and the sistas. Black to the nth power!” But that wasn’t the case. The door was open to anyone who was open to getting free help. If whites and others didn’t want to avail themselves of the tutorial program, that was on _them_, not the program. (I imagine a number of them probably would have benefited from tutoring, but were afraid of the stigma of being associated with black folks. But, of course, that’s MHO.) ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/87 "2009-12-23T22:40:49Z")
The differences from group to group are so small and irrelevant compared to all of the things that we have in common. When we get to know someone and care about them and enjoy a relationship with them, race just doesn’t enter into the picture. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/88 "2009-12-23T22:55:15Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Second, I find no practical need to do so. I have looked around and not seen an average negative disparity in white success. Most self-identification seems to be driven in modern times by a relative minority or special-interest representation. “We are Italian Americans.” Totally different feel. I know what you mean. I’m not white myself (South Asian FTR) but one time in college in the caf, a woman approached me and asked if I’d be into joining a student of color alliance or something…some kind of social group for non white kids, I guess. She sort of implied that I might be more comfortable than with whites, and I guess its seemed odd since it wasn’t like, an Indian or Pakistani student type thing…just people who aren’t white. It felt like, “You’re brown, so this is for you.” Plus, in general, I suck at being a joiner, so I was kind of put off in general. I guess I don’t really want to associate with people JUST based on skin tone. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/89 "2009-12-25T17:14:21Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > In America, the differences don’t matter. In America, the perception is that if you’re from south of the border and speak Spanish, you’re all the same. It’s not relevant that the perception os false. The perception is a reality > > In America, being Hispanic is a reality. I know that in South America, that kind of lumping together of all non-European, Spanish speaking people is absurd. It happens nonetheless. Even Brazilians get lumped in as “Hispanic.” So, in the U.S., white is also a “lumping together” that may not have something completely scientifc behind it, exactly as “hispanic” lumps various cultures/languages/ethnic origins. I don’t know how you can, in light of your own words, say that “hispanic” is more concrete than “white”. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/90 "2009-12-25T17:20:59Z")
Hispanic is “concrete” only in terms of some commonalities of prejudice that Hispanic people have to face in the US. “white” people do not have even that commonality. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/91 "2009-12-25T17:34:38Z")
> [@](#): > > The differences from group to group are so small and irrelevant compared to all of the things that we have in common. When we get to know someone and care about them and enjoy a relationship with them, race just doesn’t enter into the picture. If there was no racism we wouldn’t need to fight racism. But unfortunately we haven’t reached that point yet. Pretending there’s no such thing as race is one of the most peculiar weapons of racism because it’s often propagated by people who aren’t racist. But if you start claiming that there’s no such thing as race, you make racism invisible. You stop looking at who gets sent to prison and whose schools get less money and who is less likely to be promoted. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/92 "2009-12-25T17:49:37Z")
> [@TGWATY](#): > > (2) If so, is it ok for **white people** to similarly self identify and organize along those lines? If no, why not? It’s not OK and YES it’s a double standard. It’s like this: I can call my mother a stupid pain in the neck, but YOU CAN’T say the EXACT same thing about my mother. Why? 'Cause she’s my mother. Blacks can call each other the “n” word, but I white can’t and the above reasoning also applies. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/93 "2009-12-25T22:03:24Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > A net transfer of what? Well, there is a certain finite number of admission slots or scholarship dollars available for college kids, but they’re still disproportionately given to white people in America (and that disproportionality worsened in California once AA was abolished for the UC system) so it is particularly galling to see white people getting up in arms about things like the Cisco scholarship cited above. When I’m eligible for a Ukrainian-American club scholarship or a grant from the Italian Sons & Daughters of America, then we’ll talk. My freshman year of college, of an enrollment of 1,524 students, there were 3 Asian Americans (a set of siblings) 1 Native American, 8 Latin@s, and 21 of us were black. The other 1,491 students were white. We had a Black Students Association that was _not_ open to others, and someone complained about that and we were _forced to open to everyone or disband_. We chose to disband because we had no reason to trust any white student who would feel it necessary to come to our meetings. It would unquestionably be a move meant to disrupt (if not intimidate or harass) us. No one complained about any other segregated group, by the way, not the ones that were just for women or men, not the ones that were only for speakers of certain languages, not the ones only for children of pastors or missionaries (Christian college) nor ones that were elitist based upon academic performance or performing arts talent. Only ours. _That’s_ the ridiculous end result of white people going OMG! You [insert minority here] can’t do things without us!!! RACISM! UNFAIR! It’s nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/94 "2009-12-26T00:01:13Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Hispanic is “concrete” only in terms of some commonalities of prejudice that Hispanic people have to face in the US. “white” people do not have even that commonality. Aside from being fair-skinned? IS there any confusion for 99% of the U.S. population what white is? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/95 "2009-12-26T00:48:21Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Aside from being fair-skinned? White people in the US do not face any prejudice from being fair-skinned. > [@](#): > > IS there any confusion for 99% of the U.S. population what white is? Plenty, but the most basic identification of light skin is not a significant enough commonality to be meaningful. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/96 "2009-12-26T02:57:24Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > White people in the US do not face any prejudice from being fair-skinned. > > Plenty, but the most basic identification of light skin is not a significant enough commonality to be meaningful. Agreed on the no (or very little) discrimination. However, non-discrimination has little to do with “White Guys Scuba Diving Enthusiasts’ Bar”. It is meaningful even if you dislike it. White people can be identified by white and non-whites. The criteria may not be of your liking and may have no historic or scitific valiity, however it exists. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/97 "2009-12-26T03:57:39Z")
Of course it is exists. It’s just not very meaningful, and organizing around such a meaningless commonality is stupid, which is why the only people you ever see doing it are white supremacists. ---
**Author:** ![groo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecd19e/32.png) [@groo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/groo)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/98 "2009-12-26T10:19:45Z")
A few years ago, my company (\>50,000 employees) sent out an employee survey regarding opportunities, benefits, satisfaction with management, etc., but when listing ethnicities, it left out Hispanic. I was called to a focus group meeting a few weeks later because, as I found out when I arrived, I was Hispanic. It wasn’t a surprise; people have been mistaking me for Hispanic my whole life because my surname is obviously Hispanic. About six of us were in the room, along with a very apologetic HR person. One of the group was mightily pissed about the obvious insult to all Hispanics everywhere, but the rest of us expressed irritation that the company thought so little of us that they thought we’d even give a crap. I helpfully suggested that they could make it up to me by giving me a 15% raise, but the HR person seemed more interested in ways the company could phrase an apology in an e-mail. But I’m not Hispanic; that’s laughable. The only things I got from my Puerto Rican father were a gene for blue eyes and a surname, and my Chinese mother didn’t have anyone else to be Chinese with, so I picked up very little of that culture. The only times I’ve felt that I was singled out because of my genetic makeup were a few isolated epithets hurled at me while bicycling in certain neighborhods in Chicago, and the one time someone called me a wetback, I had to have a nearby friend explain to me that it was an insult. I got my culture from my classmates in school, old Warner Brothers cartoons and The Brady Bunch. So my culture, such as it is, is the “North American Urban Dwelling Cohort Born at the Tail End of the Baby Boom.” I think is an actual culture, because when I meet others with similar backgrounds, we have many common interests, generally common values and can riff off of each others’ cultural references. I know the general rules to follow in order to get along with others in this group, and I can predict how people in this group will generally react in various situations, because, at a fundamental level, they’re just like me. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/99 "2009-12-26T10:49:41Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The UNCF grants scholarships to all ethnicities. Your assumptions are erroneous. Diogenes, does that mean by your own definition that the UNCF doesn’t really serve black interests, since it to some extent overlaps with non-black interests? > [@John Mace](#): > > No reason “white interests” can’t incidentally help other groups as well. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > If it does, then it’s not really a white interest. Also, relative to this… > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > In America, the differences don’t matter. In America, the perception is that if you’re from south of the border and speak Spanish, you’re all the same. It’s not relevant that the perception os false. The perception is a reality …does that also lead us to conclude that relative at least to the perceptions of certain minority groups, that it is legitimate for whites to form their own groups?–i.e., since “Anglos” are believed to have their own monolithic culture. I ask because you seem to want to use a “but that’s not the reality” rationale to explain away the logic for white-only groups, but perception is good enough–perception from an external group, no less–to support other groups. ---
**Author:** ![TGWATY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5e925/32.png) [@TGWATY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TGWATY)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2009, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201/100 "2009-12-26T14:01:14Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > Well, there is a certain finite number of admission slots or scholarship dollars available for college kids, but they’re still disproportionately given to white people in America (and that disproportionality worsened in California once AA was abolished for the UC system) I don’t have any numbers handy, but I would (literally) bet a large sum of money that the group who receives scholarships the most disproportionately (that is, relative to their percentage of the population) are east Asians. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-identifying-and-organizing-by-race-except-for-whites/522201.md?page=6)