# Self-loader, or Bolt-action? Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 14, 2017, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-loader-or-bolt-action-why/784428 "2017-04-14T04:23:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-loader-or-bolt-action-why/784428/61 "2017-04-24T16:44:30Z")
I love my Swedish Mauser. M96, blond stock, matching everything and shoots like a dream. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-loader-or-bolt-action-why/784428/62 "2017-04-24T17:10:25Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > I’m not in the market for a centerfire bolt, but if I did get one in the future, it’d be 6.5. Aside from the T3 (it’s T3x now), the other major rifle is the CZ 550/557. Looks like Howa makes low production numbers, and you may be able to find a Remington, Winchester, or Ruger a couple years old if you’re lucky. BIG fan of the CZ rifles - I own a 527, as does my daughter. Sweet actions, very smooth and clean. Can’t say for Howa - don’t know them - but the Tika rifles have an excellent reputation, also. You can easily enough get one of the other rifles re-chambered/rebarreled for the 6.5; it might be a bit pricy. > [@](#): > > How does the 6.5 recoil compare to say, .243? The bullet diameter on the 6.5 is actually .264 - Recoil will be heavier, but not excessively so; considerably less than the .308 or .30-06. A common load would in the neighborhood of 140gn (9gram) bullet moving about 2600fps (800mps), yielding 2150ft-lbf (2950j) of energy at the muzzle; compare this to your favorite .243 load - I think you’ll find energies broadly similar. Biggest differences are in velocity (advantage .243), and sectional density (advantage 6.5). > [@silenus](#): > > I love my Swedish Mauser. M96, blond stock, matching everything and shoots like a dream. Beech stock with a darker finish, barrel condition 1, no holdover. Looks like it was never issued. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-loader-or-bolt-action-why/784428/63 "2017-04-24T17:17:14Z")
Actually, I’ve shot both bolt-action and semi-auto rifles and don’t care, though my inner Luddite likes the bolt-action. These days, a good scope matters more than anything else, if I have to shoot a varmint\*. For pistols I prefer revolvers. One of my favorite presents from a boyfriend was a sweet .38 S&W 5-shot. (I like revolvers because I still believe that if I load the bullet wrong it’ll explode and take my hand off. Yes, I know it won’t and that is illogical.) These days I don’t have any guns. I live in Massachusetts, and it’s a bigger pain than it’s worth for me to take the safety class (ugh, I took one when I was twelve) and get approval from the local sheriff and the state. It’s a PITA. \*\*To clarify, varmint-shooting happens if I’m at a friend’s farm in New Hampshire. I have better night vision than he has so I’m pulled into service when something is trying to get into the chicken coop or turkey coop. \* ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-loader-or-bolt-action-why/784428/64 "2017-04-24T17:21:12Z")
Eh. Not discussing local laws, or my reactions to same - likely to get the thread moved. 😛 Optics are something I’ve had to come to accept. Hurts my pride, but the eyes, well, they’re not what they used to be. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-loader-or-bolt-action-why/784428/65 "2017-04-24T18:53:43Z")
> [@Tranquilis](#): > > BIG fan of the CZ rifles - I own a 527, as does my daughter. Sweet actions, very smooth and clean. Can’t say for Howa - don’t know them - but the Tika rifles have an excellent reputation, also. You can easily enough get one of the other rifles re-chambered/rebarreled for the 6.5; it might be a bit pricy. Howa has a good reputation for accuracy but aren’t very well known. They make the Weatherby Vanguard, which is better known and one of the more accurate out of the box sub $1000 rifles right now (along with Tikka, CZ, some Savages). The advantage of the Tikka is that they are usually lighter, though this translates to increased recoil, other things being equal. > [@](#): > > The bullet diameter on the 6.5 is actually .264 - Recoil will be heavier, but not excessively so; considerably less than the .308 or .30-06. A common load would in the neighborhood of 140gn (9gram) bullet moving about 2600fps (800mps), yielding 2150ft-lbf (2950j) of energy at the muzzle; compare this to your favorite .243 load - I think you’ll find energies broadly similar. Though I think 6.5 would be considered more powerful, say for elk, which is doable with .243 but not normally recommended? I was asking because .243 is often recommended for young shooters (not that adults can’t get advantage out of it). I was wondering if smaller people who are more recoil adverse might be okay with the 6.5. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-loader-or-bolt-action-why/784428/66 "2017-04-24T20:42:42Z")
I’ve seen a LOT of adverts lately for Howa “Short Action” rifles, for loighter cartridges. just don’t kown anyone who’s shot them. Will have to ‘watch that space’ and see what I can learn. 😉 No, I (personally) would seriously NOT use a .243 on elk! Elk are large and tough enough that you want reliable deep-body penetration, and the ability to punch through heavy bone. There are some _experienced_ hunters who will use the .243 on elk, but they are picking their animals very carefully, and choosing their shots with great care. The 6.5 will do the trick, though. The Swedes use it to take moose - the greater sectional density comes into play there. I generally consider the .243 a good light-medium game round, topping out at white tail, maybe mulies (depending on terrain and range), and black bear, but also good for larger varmints (coyote). (disclaimer: I don’t shoot the .243, myself - YMMV) Can’t speak for recoil adversity, but I intend to let my my daughter try the 6.5. The .223, she has no problems with, but .308 makes her want to cry. I’m hoping the 6.5 is the sweet-spot for her. Will let you know. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2017, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-loader-or-bolt-action-why/784428/67 "2017-04-24T23:53:35Z")
> [@Tranquilis](#): > > 🙂 > > The 6.5x55 Swedish cartridge is an under-known wonder. High sectional-density combined with a generous propelling charge means high velocity, flat shooting, deep penetration, and modest recoil. It’ll take any game found in North America, and is an excellent distance-shooting caliber, if you’re into that kind of thing. I came to it VERY late (like in the last few months) and I’m a convert. .30-06 is a reliable heavy game taker, yeah, but the 6.5 can show it a thing or two. Having one of each means you’ve got ALL the bases covered. 😃 6.5x55 Swedish is hugely popular in Australia for all those reasons - IMHO it’s probably the perfect “all-round” calibre and can take easily everything a hunter is likely to encounter here, with the possible exception of some of the larger and angrier pigs and water buffalo. Someone imported a huge number of M38 and M96 rifles into the country about 25 years ago so they’re quite easy to get and as a general rule they’re all in great shape - I’ve only ever seen one with a barrel less that “very good”. It’s probably the second most common rifle at Service Rifle competitions after the SMLE and No 4 Lee-Enfield rifles too. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-loader-or-bolt-action-why/784428/68 "2017-05-01T18:21:58Z")
**Martini Enfield** , Check your PMs - I sent you some details on the mystery Lee rifle. I have images, as well. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-loader-or-bolt-action-why/784428/69 "2017-05-01T22:08:00Z")
Thanks! I’ve replied to to it. 🙂 I do like a good Lee-Enfield research opportunity! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-loader-or-bolt-action-why/784428/70 "2017-05-02T00:37:43Z")
Happy to oblige. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-loader-or-bolt-action-why/784428/71 "2017-05-02T00:43:43Z")
> [@Tranquilis](#): > > Hell, even my plinking is back to bolt-guns. Is it because I’m getting older, so love ‘old mens’ rifles? Is it some kind of growing sophistication? Or have I tapped into something universal? You’ve discovered that shooting, versus spraying lead down-range, is more satisfying. You’ve become the old man who taught you. Pay it forward. > [@kopek](#): > > Don’t worry – we understand. Shooting them is cool. > Cleaning them suuuuuuucks. > > 😃 It allows you to wallow in the heavenly scent of Hoppe #9. A most spiritual experience, and one I haven’t tried tried since throwing out the BP handgun I had just built. Cursory inspection by an engineer’s mind, I swore I would never, ever fire a gun I had built. :eek: > [@Scumpup](#): > > One of the things that tickles me about my Marlin .45-70 Guide Gun is that it was thr real world basis for Medicine Stick in Fallout New Vegas. Take your arm off, bro. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-loader-or-bolt-action-why/784428/72 "2017-05-02T01:17:56Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > It allows you to wallow in the heavenly scent of Hoppe #9. A most spiritual experience, and one I haven’t tried tried since throwing out the BP handgun I had just built. Cursory inspection by an engineer’s mind, I swore I would never, ever fire a gun I had built. :eek: I have built and shot my own locks and barrels but I’m way more than a casual charcoal burner. One thing I will highly recommend for anyone shooting BP is tracking down the Winchester Sutler and ordering some of their Moose-Milk for cleaning. I have tried everything on the market and a few things that never got to market and that far and away does the best job. It isn’t easier but even in pieces that have been stored for ages I have never gotten that “red beard” effect in one of my tubes or had any lock issues. PS – off topic but on the way home from vacation today I snagged a nice Marlin hammered pump 12g. Now to do some research on it. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-loader-or-bolt-action-why/784428/73 "2017-05-02T01:34:27Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > You’ve discovered that shooting, versus spraying lead down-range, is more satisfying. You’ve become the old man who taught you. Pay it forward. Already done… 🙂 My daugher is a dedicated turn-bolt fan. She’s also fundamentally a better shot than I was, at her age. Her small collection of long guns are exclusively bolt-action, and all are of high-precision build. I flatter myself to think I had some input there. :dubious: She’s rather sassy about that. 😛 > [@](#): > > …the heavenly scent of Hoppe #9. A most spiritual experience… Eau de Gun-Bench. 😃 > [@](#): > > Cursory inspection by an engineer’s mind, I swore I would never, ever fire a gun I had built. The path of wisdom - if you don’t trust it, don’t shoot it. ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-loader-or-bolt-action-why/784428/74 "2017-05-02T02:58:07Z")
Depends on what you are using the gun for i guess? Bolt has some distinct advantages Simplicity Low maintenance Reliability Accuracy Perhaps power and range too. All power to pushing the bullet, none used to operate the gun. I have more things bolt than otherwise GEW88 (long infantry) en-bloc KAR88 (short cavalry scabbard) en-bloc KAR98K stripper M1917 Enfield M1903 Springfield 510 Remington target master .22 Marlin 81DL 22 As opposed to M1 Garand M1 Carbine If we include pistols, which are not rifles of course M1911 45acp High Standard HDM 22 Mauser 1910 25acp So only 2 rifles. Nothing wrong with the semi autos, but they are not as forgiving need to be cleaned better to work well, do not seem quite as accurate, and firing the same ammo, dont have quite the same penetration. They also tend to cost more, sometimes a lot more. The bolt actions have a very small number of parts and things to clean and are more forgiving of getting dirty And a bonus of no hot brass landing on me until i say so. Ever have hot brass decide to go down a shirt sleeve? I guess the lever/pump actions i’d have to put half way in between. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-loader-or-bolt-action-why/784428/75 "2017-05-02T03:46:28Z")
> [@Weisshund](#): > > And a bonus of no hot brass landing on me until i say so. > Ever have hot brass decide to go down a shirt sleeve? The always-amusing Brass Dance! It’s worse for the ladies, as they’re more often wearing clothing that will catch and funnel hot brass where you don’t want it. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-loader-or-bolt-action-why/784428/76 "2017-05-02T17:09:58Z")
> [@Tranquilis](#): > > **Martini Enfield** , Check your PMs - I sent you some details on the mystery Lee rifle. I have images, as well. PM updated with links to images and additional details. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-loader-or-bolt-action-why/784428/77 "2017-05-02T22:15:23Z")
> [@Tranquilis](#): > > PM updated with links to images and additional details. Excellent - The mystery unfolds! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-loader-or-bolt-action-why/784428/78 "2017-05-09T15:20:23Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Excellent - The mystery unfolds! 😃 …and grows more mysterious. Apparently not a military issue; the wrist socket information is remarkably sparse; Just BSA Co. marking. Charger Guide Bridge is one piece with the reciever. See the images I linked to you. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-loader-or-bolt-action-why/784428/79 "2017-05-09T18:33:55Z")
It is kind of a mystery why you two are conducting this conversation in the thread rather than by PM. The other participants in the thread have no idea wtf you are discussing. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2017, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-loader-or-bolt-action-why/784428/80 "2017-05-10T02:49:07Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > It is kind of a mystery why you two are conducting this conversation in the thread rather than by PM. The other participants in the thread have no idea wtf you are discussing. Yeah — pictures or it didn’t happen. Plus you got a lot of us curious now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-loader-or-bolt-action-why/784428.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-loader-or-bolt-action-why/784428.md?page=5)