# Self Pitting **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 5, 2012, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-pitting/630516 "2012-08-05T14:38:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-pitting/630516/21 "2012-08-05T22:20:26Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > See, and I thought it was because she was more interested in starting some sort of anti-elitist mudslinging match than actually interested in the topic on its merits, and would in fact be sorely disappointed if the thread only attracted measured, reasonable, qualified responses. I thought it was because she wrote it herself instead of contracting the work out to a Pitting service. Or so she’d have us believe. ---
**Author:** ![moejoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@moejoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejoe)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-pitting/630516/22 "2012-08-05T23:01:48Z")
Why is it always underwater basketweaving? Do you really think those kids paying off student loans studied something _that_ useless? I’d hate to live in a world where everyone is a plumber or an engineer and we have no artists or historians or social workers. Becoming a waitress in debt doesn’t mean your sociology degree was a waste of time or money, it means you’re not yet working in your field. So let’s say you don’t want to be a plumber or an electrician. Maybe you wouldn’t be good at those things but you really do like office work or management and you’re good at it. Even a receptionist job requires a degree these days, so what would you have those people do? I think there’s very little chance that those education requirements for office jobs will go away, so what is your solution? The problem isn’t college, it’s the steep rise in the cost of getting an education in the US. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-pitting/630516/23 "2012-08-05T23:09:56Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I thought it was because she wrote it herself instead of contracting the work out to a Pitting service. Or so she’d have us believe. GTFO. There’s a Pitting service? I’m intrigued; I wonder if they’re hiring. Do I need a degree or be licensed or something? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-pitting/630516/24 "2012-08-05T23:31:48Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Honestly? Yes. In the same 4 years you learned organic chem, you could have gotten a degree in plumbing from a trade school and set yourself up working as a journeyman for a plumber and be working towards masters certification. And then people bitch about the high cost of hiring a plumber because they are in short supply. Maybe you don’t care, but you’re essentially calling everyone who is unemployed right now a moron. Because everyone could have gone to school to become a plumber (or an manicurist, or a welder, or a bus driver) instead of the would-be laid-off teacher, accountant, or scientist they are. Everyone could have studied something more “profitable” in school. Everyone can become obsolete. Let’s say everyone follows your advice and becomes a master plumber. Suddenly plumbers are a dime a dozen and the market is maxed out (with a whole bunch of crappy ones thrown in just to confuse the consumer). What do you tell the little boy who wants to be a plumber when he grows up? “Don’t do that, jackass. There’s no profit in that! Go to school and become an electrician! You don’t understand circuits? Buck the fuck up, bub. I don’t understand how bleach is so effective at cleaning shitstains, but that doesn’t keep me from washing yer drawers!” A lot of people have gotten degrees at vocational schools that promise jobs upon graduation. And a lot of those people don’t have jobs, but are saddled with $100K in debt. Every other TV commercial I see is advertising to people following your advice. There aren’t a whole lot of commercials telling students that studying 17th century Russian literature will set themselves up for life. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-pitting/630516/25 "2012-08-06T01:17:44Z")
That’s it then. I’m sending my son to an ivy league college to study underwater basket weaving, and turn it into a new, international sensation – creationg entire baskets, 12 feet underwater, in one breath. He’ll create huge publicity, cap the World Record, make the cover of Time, and become a multimillion dollar sponsor to the reed and willow industry, as well as become the spokesperson for Wet Braid Magazine. The Olympics will be forced to create a new field of competition, and he’ll win several Golds for the US. He’ll become… A god! ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-pitting/630516/26 "2012-08-06T07:29:29Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Honestly? Yes. In the same 4 years you learned organic chem, you could have gotten a degree in plumbing from a trade school and set yourself up working as a journeyman for a plumber and be working towards masters certification. And then people bitch about the high cost of hiring a plumber because they are in short supply. But what if you don’t want to be a plumber? Do we just force everyone into vocational training regardless of what they want? There’s more to life than just earning the maximum amount of money. As Monstro mentions, you are basically saying that anyone who does something they enjoy and excel at is a moron if they don’t step straight out of university and into a job. It doesn’t work that way for many, but that doesn’t mean their degree is necessarily wasted or that they won’t work their way into a job in their field. The job market is shit right now, and honestly you sound quite out of touch with the realities young people are facing in finding employment. You are arguing for a society entirely made up of plumbers and welders and bus drivers. But the kids who major in organic chemistry or whatever are the ones who will end up being the doctors and researchers and lab technichians and professors of tomorrow. And the ones who major in literature will be the writers and artists of tomorrow. We need those people too, and there’s no good reason to discourage kids who have such academic goals just because it might not be a walk in the park. ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-pitting/630516/27 "2012-08-06T10:36:30Z")
If only we all had learned a valuable skill like blacksmithing instead of going to college. We’d all be rich! Rich as Nazis! > **[My roomie is about to NOT get to Pennsic](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=659791)** > > backstory - mrAru had been out of work for about 5 months before getting this current temp gig. Roomie works as a blacksmith, so money is not really prevalent around here right now, and our chevy s-10 is currently hors de combat fuel pump. mrAru... Aruvqan, if not going to college worked out so well economically for you, why are you constantly complaining about how poor you are? Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m off to work at a job I actually enjoy that would not have been available to me without a liberal arts degree. ---
**Author:** ![elninost0rm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ed655f/32.png) [@elninost0rm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elninost0rm)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-pitting/630516/28 "2012-08-06T12:27:00Z")
> [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > If only we all had learned a valuable skill like blacksmithing instead of going to college. We’d all be rich! Rich as Nazis! > > [My roomie is about to NOT get to Pennsic - The BBQ Pit - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=659791) > > Aruvqan, if not going to college worked out so well economically for you, why are you constantly complaining about how poor you are? > > Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m off to work at a job I actually enjoy that would not have been available to me without a liberal arts degree. That’s a wrap. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-pitting/630516/29 "2012-08-06T14:19:08Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > The OP is way out of touch with the educational requirements for nursing, though. Where I am, an RN needs a bachelor’s degree before even attempting to get into one of the few nursing programs in the area. And any nursing degree less than an RN only qualifies a person for a low-paying job here. But I am against _useless_ degrees. Pre-med/pre-nursing is different. As I said, there is a need for medical personel, not so much artists. Do we really need more graphic artists [my brother in law for example worked as a barista and then as telephone customer service and has a degree in graphic arts and a minor in computer graphic arts] > [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > If only we all had learned a valuable skill like blacksmithing instead of going to college. We’d all be rich! Rich as Nazis! > > [My roomie is about to NOT get to Pennsic - The BBQ Pit - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=659791) > > Aruvqan, if not going to college worked out so well economically for you, why are you constantly complaining about how poor you are? > > Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m off to work at a job I actually enjoy that would not have been available to me without a liberal arts degree. Well, this thing called handicapped rather prevents my getting around much.Well, originally I moved thanks to being a navy spouse and the only jobs available were clerical jobs so I shifted to doing customer service. Then my body went to hell and I required telecommuting, so my employer shifted me to telecommuting. Then I got laid off thanks to the economy, and it is effectively impossible to get a new job that is telecommuting straight out of the box - companies want you to prove you are a good and dedicated employee _then_ they will grudgingly allow you to start to telecommute. There is a small issue with the supposed handicapped accessible buildings actually not really being so accessible. My last job was impossible to get into in a chair unless you had someone escort you into the building to swipe all the access points. [you could barely swipe a card and get the door open using crutches, a chair is impossible. I suppose you could use a grabby stick to hold the card so you could move it over to the wall near the door …:dubious:] ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-pitting/630516/30 "2012-08-06T14:52:02Z")
> [@Faruiza](#): > > A lot of trades, (Electricians, IBEW for one) have apprenticeship programs where they pay you to work in the field while you go to school a couple of nights a week. **If you’re a good egg, it is possible to command six figures in those industries and you don’t have any debt to pay off at all.** My husband and I did it, although I didn’t stay in the field, my husband just came back to it after being away from it for 10 years. Bolding mine. It’s great that you and your husband managed to do this, but you’re extreme outliers and these discussions necessarily have to focus on average employees rather than “good eggs.” Advancement in the trades requires a lot of the same skills - communication, responsibility, reliability, attention to detail, etc. - that advancement in white collar work does. My point is that the few people who end up making $100k as tradespeople would probably be more successful than average in an office environment if they chose. That kind of salary goes to the person, not the job. Skilled tradespeople do make decent salaries, but an average electrician or plumber isn’t ever going to approach $100,000 a year. For senior tradespeople (completed apprenticeship, field-specific training, 5+ years experience), median salaries run around $40,000 ([machine operators](http://www1.salary.com/Machine-Operator-III-Salary.html)) - $60,000 ([electric/electronic tehnicians](http://www1.salary.com/Electric-Electronics-Technician-III-Salary.html)), with [plumbers](http://www1.salary.com/Plumber-III-Salary.html) right in the middle at $51,000. That’s a good living, but it’s nowhere near what some of the posters in this thread are saying it is. Look at the percentiles on those curves - less than 5% of the workers in those trades are ever going to see $70k, let alone $100k. And if we intentionally funnel more people into those trades, wages will fall as supply increases. > [@aruvqan](#): > > But I am against _useless_ degrees. Pre-med/pre-nursing is different. As I said, there is a need for medical personel, not so much artists. Do we really need more graphic artists [my brother in law for example worked as a barista and then as telephone customer service and has a degree in graphic arts and a minor in computer graphic arts] > > Well, this thing called handicapped rather prevents my getting around much.Well, originally I moved thanks to being a navy spouse and the only jobs available were clerical jobs so I shifted to doing customer service. Then my body went to hell and I required telecommuting, so my employer shifted me to telecommuting. Then I got laid off thanks to the economy, and it is effectively impossible to get a new job that is telecommuting straight out of the box - companies want you to prove you are a good and dedicated employee _then_ they will grudgingly allow you to start to telecommute. There is a small issue with the supposed handicapped accessible buildings actually not really being so accessible. My last job was impossible to get into in a chair unless you had someone escort you into the building to swipe all the access points. [you could barely swipe a card and get the door open using crutches, a chair is impossible. I suppose you could use a grabby stick to hold the card so you could move it over to the wall near the door …:dubious:] So you made some choices for your own quality of life that weren’t necessarily in your own economic best interest… and the economy is a valid excuse for you, but not for all the other “morons” with “useless” degrees? Nice. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-pitting/630516/31 "2012-08-06T14:59:31Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Well, this thing called handicapped rather prevents my getting around much.Well, originally I moved thanks to being a navy spouse and the only jobs available were clerical jobs so I shifted to doing customer service. Then my body went to hell and I required telecommuting, so my employer shifted me to telecommuting. Then I got laid off thanks to the economy, and it is effectively impossible to get a new job that is telecommuting straight out of the box - companies want you to prove you are a good and dedicated employee _then_ they will grudgingly allow you to start to telecommute. There is a small issue with the supposed handicapped accessible buildings actually not really being so accessible. My last job was impossible to get into in a chair unless you had someone escort you into the building to swipe all the access points. [you could barely swipe a card and get the door open using crutches, a chair is impossible. I suppose you could use a grabby stick to hold the card so you could move it over to the wall near the door …:dubious:] Isn’t this an argument _against_ going into the trades? Physical disability can happen to anyone, and a plumber or a machinist or a carpenter is going to be much more affected than a project manager or an accountant or a computer programer. Your experiences post disability might have been very different if you had training and certification (i.e., a college degree) in something that could be done from home, or in a wider variety of offices. Honestly, the threat of physical decline is the single most convincing reason I know of to go to college: my brother is a carpenter/rehabber and loves it in many ways, but at 45 he’s starting to feel the effects of a life of physical labor, and I think the last ten years before retirement are going to be a lot more distressing for him than for the other two brothers that went into computers: gambling on your body holding out doesn’t seem that smart to me. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-pitting/630516/32 "2012-08-06T15:08:26Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > I’d be hard pressed to think of _any_ degree that leads immeditately to a profitable job. We don’t live in that world any more. Actually, I have a friend who’s just starting a masters’ in speech pathology in a program which for several years has had 100% employment of each class BEFORE they even graduate. ETA - I do, however, know plenty of electricians who can’t get any work in this economy because so much of what they had done previously was in construction and we all know what happened to construction. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-pitting/630516/33 "2012-08-06T16:31:39Z")
You guys are losing sight of the big picture. **aruvqan** is being _barraged_ by petitions! Barraged! Petitions! She’s the _victim_. Not you mollycoddled snowflakes with your “interests” and your “preferences” for how you live your “life”. Just shut up and dig ditches already so she can finally look at Facebook in peace. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-pitting/630516/34 "2012-08-06T16:54:50Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > But I am against _useless_ degrees. Pre-med/pre-nursing is different. As I said, there is a need for medical personel, not so much artists. Around here any degree can be a pre-med if the person plans to go to med school. So the guy who gets a chemistry degree and wants to go to med school is just fine, but the guy who gets a chemistry degree and wants to be a lab technician is a total moron? What if the first guy doesn’t get into med school on the first try? A huge percentage of pre-meds actually never get into med school and end up in other jobs - are they all morons too? And no need for artists? You have a weird idea of what is ‘useless’. Do you not realize how much of what you consume (TV, movies, video games, nice restaurant food, etc.) is produced by trained artists? And yet you think nobody should even attempt to do that stuff? > [@](#): > > Well, this thing called handicapped rather prevents my getting around much. I’m assuming that’s not true for your roommate and husband though. > [@My roomie is about to NOT get to Pennsic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/my-roomie-is-about-to-not-get-to-pennsic/629384/1): > > mrAru had been out of work for about 5 months before getting this current temp gig. Roomie works as a blacksmith, so money is not really prevalent around here right now So why don’t these people have money coming out their ears, seeing as they made the correct decision by training in a trade? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-pitting/630516/35 "2012-08-06T18:53:07Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > But I am against _useless_ degrees. Pre-med/pre-nursing is different. As I said, there is a need for medical personel, not so much artists. Do we really need more graphic artists [my brother in law for example worked as a barista and then as telephone customer service and has a degree in graphic arts and a minor in computer graphic arts] FWIW, except for one, dire year, I’ve been making six figures in self-employment as a graphic artist / CG animator since 2007, with nothing more than a high school diploma. Granted, I’m just an anecdote. ETA: And it’s pretty close to my dream job, and definitely something I knew I wanted to get into since I was 6 yo. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-pitting/630516/36 "2012-08-06T19:00:09Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > […] there is no dishonor in a manual job. **aruvqan** , you may want to have a word with **aruvqan** about this: > [@aruvqan](#): > > If the little morons and their parents would sent the idiots to trade school where they could learn something like plumbing or HVAC repair they wouldn’t have the student loan. ---
**Author:** ![Bass\_Chick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/43a26b/32.png) [@Bass\_Chick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bass_Chick)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-pitting/630516/37 "2012-08-06T19:21:22Z")
I don’t think a person should give up on their dream, but they should give careful thought about how to make it happen. I can see the wisdom of getting some vocational training to earn a living (temporarily) and to pay tuition. A lot of universities offer online classes, so scheduling could be flexible. It would take longer to complete a degree, but a person could graduate debt free. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-pitting/630516/38 "2012-08-06T19:38:23Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Isn’t this an argument _against_ going into the trades? Physical disability can happen to anyone, and a plumber or a machinist or a carpenter is going to be much more affected than a project manager or an accountant or a computer programer. Your experiences post disability might have been very different if you had training and certification (i.e., a college degree) in something that could be done from home, or in a wider variety of offices. > > Honestly, the threat of physical decline is the single most convincing reason I know of to go to college: my brother is a carpenter/rehabber and loves it in many ways, but at 45 he’s starting to feel the effects of a life of physical labor, and I think the last ten years before retirement are going to be a lot more distressing for him than for the other two brothers that went into computers: gambling on your body holding out doesn’t seem that smart to me. We really need a “halleluiah, praise the lord” smilie. If that’s too sanctimonious, we can go with a “damn you for stealing what I was gonna say!” smilie. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-pitting/630516/39 "2012-08-06T20:52:25Z")
So the OP chose an apt title for the thread after all. ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-pitting/630516/40 "2012-08-06T21:22:09Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > FWIW, except for one, dire year, I’ve been making six figures in self-employment as a graphic artist / CG animator since 2007, with nothing more than a high school diploma. > > Granted, I’m just an anecdote. > > ETA: And it’s pretty close to my dream job, and definitely something I knew I wanted to get into since I was 6 yo. I don’t want to hijack aruvqan putting her foot in her mouth, but that sounds like it might be a vaguely interesting story. What do you work on, movies, advertisements, something much more technical based, or what? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-pitting/630516.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-pitting/630516.md?page=3)