# Self-Proclaimed King Has Become the Court Jester **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** basketball-nba\ **Created:** [May 1, 2025, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-proclaimed-king-has-become-the-court-jester/1017752 "2025-05-01T14:53:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-proclaimed-king-has-become-the-court-jester/1017752/61 "2025-05-27T21:36:21Z")
You are so incredibly out of line for this forum. There is a vast gulf of difference between having an opinion on certain teammates, or your teams roster and DEMANDING a trade for a certain player, or demanding your team draft a certain player (Bronny), or having your agent call other teams and threaten them away from drafting that player (Bronny). I will stand by everything I said and I’m confident that readers of this thread will have the same reaction as I have to your over the top and inappropriate responses. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-proclaimed-king-has-become-the-court-jester/1017752/62 "2025-05-27T21:46:15Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > ). I will stand by everything I said and I’m confident that readers of this thread will have the same reaction as I have to your over the top and inappropriate responses. Nope … ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-proclaimed-king-has-become-the-court-jester/1017752/63 "2025-05-27T21:51:44Z")
I see, “My cite is better than yours because it’s from a dead person.” I was not aware that things said by dead people suddenly become true. ---
**Author:** ![keeganst94](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a6a055/32.png) [@keeganst94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/keeganst94)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-proclaimed-king-has-become-the-court-jester/1017752/64 "2025-05-27T21:58:16Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > I will stand by everything I said and I’m confident that readers of this thread will have the same reaction as I have to your over the top and inappropriate responses Nope. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-proclaimed-king-has-become-the-court-jester/1017752/65 "2025-05-27T21:58:20Z")
In terms of relative rankings, I prefer MJ over LBJ as GOAT\*, in case anyone cares. But I admire both men and do not begrudge them their success or accolades, even if it’s self-given. \*Russell and Kareem also have says in the matter, even though they played a vastly different style of ball. If your list has any of these four on the top, I won’t argue. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-proclaimed-king-has-become-the-court-jester/1017752/66 "2025-05-27T22:30:39Z")
Add me to the choir. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-proclaimed-king-has-become-the-court-jester/1017752/67 "2025-05-27T23:18:12Z")
So when, exactly, did it become ok to tell other posters to shut up outside of The Pit? Also, I never said what Krause said is true “because he is dead”. I said its pretty ridiculous to try to speak for a dead person in direct contravention to their own words. I mean if we can dismiss a cite of the person himself directly addressing the issue, then we can dismiss literally every other cite. Then what is the point of all of this? Also your cite didn’t even conflict with Krause’s words. Again, having an opinion about your teams construction is one thing. Demanding the GM make certain moves is another. Jordan loved playing with Charles Oakley. Krause traded him anyway. If Jordan dictated Krause’s moves as is the claim, then how do you square that circle? ---
**Author:** ![peccavi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peccavi/32/388_2.png) [@peccavi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peccavi)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-proclaimed-king-has-become-the-court-jester/1017752/68 "2025-05-27T23:32:33Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > In terms of relative rankings, I prefer MJ over LBJ as GOAT\*, in case anyone cares. But I admire both men and do not begrudge them their success or accolades, even if it’s self-given. I once ran across a quote (from a baseball manager, I believe) that summed up my GOAT philosophy: “I don’t know that he’s in a class by himself. I do know it doesn’t take long to call roll.” I think of every sport as having tiny groups of “GOAT-class” players and don’t try to get into arguments that cross eras, require factoring in different rules, different teams strengths, etc. I’m content with groupings of “GOATs”. In the NBA, I also divide my GOATs into two classes: Big Men and everyone else. **Big Men** : Kareem, Wilt, Russell (standing just outside the classroom- Olajuwon, Shaq) **Everyone Else** : Jordan, LeBron, Magic (Standing just outside the classroom- Larry Bird, Oscar Robertson) Don’t ask me to try to compare, for example, Kareem to Jordan and don’t ask me to get into the (IMHO ultimately futile) exercise of ordering within each class. I’m content that “it doesn’t take long to call roll” ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-proclaimed-king-has-become-the-court-jester/1017752/69 "2025-05-28T00:24:43Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > If Jordan dictated Krause’s moves as is the claim That was not the claim. I would also like to note that my cite, as of _this_ post (7:26pm, Central), remains unclicked. Your assertion that my cite doesn’t say what I claimed it said is not backed by evidence that you even looked at it. [![Imgur](https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54550697295_7829429757_b.jpg "Screenshot\_20250527\_192639\_Chrome") ](https://www.flickr.com/photos/68782016@N08/54550697295/) ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-proclaimed-king-has-become-the-court-jester/1017752/70 "2025-05-28T00:50:01Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > I would also like to note that my cite, as of _this_ post (7:26pm, Central), remains unclicked. A point of order… I definitely clicked that link a while ago. I just clicked it again. I’m not sure why it isn’t registering any clicks. So that’s not evidence that @Airbeck hasn’t read it. I don’t think Krause was a liar, if what Krause said wasn’t true. It seems like Krause was being diplomatic and trying to not smear Jordan’s name by insisting that Jordan was a good team player and confident in the organization and his own ability being enough. To me it speaks well of Krause to act that way, and I do think that reading things about him outside of _The Last Dance_, that the documentary put him in an unfair light (as much as I liked watching it). Here’s another article about Jordan lobbying for trades. And the author had the same assumption I did about Krause and why he denied it. [_Basketball Network_: Breaking the myth that Michael Jordan “never came and asked for other players”](https://www.basketballnetwork.net/old-school/breaking-the-myth-that-michael-jordan-never-came-and-asked-jerry-krause-and-the-chicago-bulls-for-players) > So why did Jerry Krause said it? It was an olive branch to try and improve their relationship. All Krause ever wanted was for MJ to recognize his work and decisions. Sadly, Jordan never did. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-proclaimed-king-has-become-the-court-jester/1017752/71 "2025-05-28T00:54:28Z")
I see a lot of opinions that Jordan expressed. As I mentioned, opinions are not demands, and especially not demands that are followed through on by the GM. Every example in that cite is Jordan not getting his way regardless of his opinions. Was there an example in that list where Jordan went to Krause and made a direct demand to him? I didn’t see anything like that. Nothing like intimidating other teams via his agent to not draft a certain player and ensuring that his team did get that guy. That is the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-proclaimed-king-has-become-the-court-jester/1017752/72 "2025-05-28T01:02:38Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Was there an example in that list where Jordan went to Krause and made a direct demand to him? I wonder if you’re talking past each other. Jordan clearly had no respect for Krause. He loathed him. He mocked him. Fans even booed Krause because their hero didn’t like him. So if Jordan never approached Krause directly, that’s not necessarily a surprise. I got the impression that Jordan never wanted to engage with Krause over anything. But that’s not what @JohnT claimed. The claim was: > [@JohnT](#): > > And it’s not as if Jordan passively watched Krause, et al, choose a roster in the first place. He lobbied hard for Horace Grant, nixed a Pippen/Kemp trade, and his buy-in was mandatory in allowing Rodman on the team. Jordan could have absolutely done all that by going around and/or above Krause. Complaining to ownership. Making his wishes known. Threatening people if he didn’t get his way. It could also help inform Krause’s statement too. Krause said Jordan never came to _him_ about trades or drafts. Which doesn’t contradict what others have claimed (including Jordan himself). Krause calling Jordan “smart”, and saying that he “understood what we had to do as an organization” was clearly diplomatic. I mean, Jordan turned the fans against Krause, so the last thing Krause would want is to acknowledge the friction. But that’s not to say that Jordan didn’t try to get trades done and shape the team the way he wanted, because there is a ton of testimony that he did. ---
**Author:** ![Xocomil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xocomil/32/14927_2.png) [@Xocomil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xocomil)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-proclaimed-king-has-become-the-court-jester/1017752/73 "2025-05-28T01:07:30Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > But that’s not to say that Jordan didn’t try to get trades done and shape the team the way he wanted, because there is a ton of testimony that he did. He was just worse at it than Lebron is. That makes him better, I guess? ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-proclaimed-king-has-become-the-court-jester/1017752/74 "2025-05-28T01:10:33Z")
> [@Xocomil](#): > > He was just worse at it than Lebron is. Or, as one article I read put it, “It was a different time back then.” ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-proclaimed-king-has-become-the-court-jester/1017752/75 "2025-05-28T01:23:06Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > The word “2nd” caught my attention: " The All-NBA **Second** Team consists of the five players who receive the **next highest** number of points in the annual All-NBA voting. The **top five players** make the **First** Team, and the next five form the Second Team." > > I fail to see how this counters my argument that he is not the greatEST player of all time. LOL Players selected to an All-NBA team after turning 40: 1. LeBron James Feel free to fill in number two. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-proclaimed-king-has-become-the-court-jester/1017752/76 "2025-05-28T01:27:13Z")
[Moderating] > [@JohnT](#): > > ETA: i see you typing. Please stop. You don’t get to tell other posters not to post in a thread. > [@JohnT](#): > > You’re right. You can’t even tell _yourself_ to do something. Comment withdrawn. And this is a personal attack, for which you will be receiving a Warning. Meanwhile, > [@Airbeck](#): > > You are so incredibly out of line for this forum. While it happens that I agree with you, this was not your call to make. You did report the post, which was the correct move to make, but you should have left it there. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-proclaimed-king-has-become-the-court-jester/1017752/77 "2025-05-28T11:57:14Z")
My final word on this. You can talk this and that and stats galore, but the debate isn’t about whether or not Lebron James is a great player. Of course he is and, in fact, is unarguably in the top 5 players of all time in my mind. The discussion, however, is he actually what he proclaims himself to be, the Greatest Player of All Time. The one condemning fact is that, if you want to qualify as the greatEST, you have to finish. Your good enough to get to the Finals? Then you win because that is what the greatEST does. Michael Jordan made 6 Finals and won all of them because he played great basketball, came through at crunch time, and hit game winning shots. If he hadn’t taken those 2 years off in his prime, I fully believe he would have had an “8-Peat”, not two “3-Peats”. LeBron’s mechanizations has gotten him to 10 Finals. He won 4 of them. His epic 4th quarter playoff no shows are a historical record for all to see including this season where his 4th quarter performance in a couple of games was nothing less than abysmal. History doesn’t lie. When all the marbles are on the table in crunch time, the greatEST gets it done. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-proclaimed-king-has-become-the-court-jester/1017752/78 "2025-05-28T13:59:34Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > LeBron’s mechanizations has gotten him to 10 Finals. You have something against cyborgs? ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-proclaimed-king-has-become-the-court-jester/1017752/79 "2025-05-28T17:21:07Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > You have something against cyborgs? LeBron doesn’t! Some of his best friends are cyborgs. [![](https://static1.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/teen-titans-go-lebron-james-cameo.jpg) ](https://static1.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/teen-titans-go-lebron-james-cameo.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Xocomil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xocomil/32/14927_2.png) [@Xocomil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xocomil)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2025, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-proclaimed-king-has-become-the-court-jester/1017752/80 "2025-05-29T00:45:20Z")
If Jordan is the greatEST, because, stats be damned, he has 6 finals appearances and 6 championships, then Pippen is right there with him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-proclaimed-king-has-become-the-court-jester/1017752.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-proclaimed-king-has-become-the-court-jester/1017752.md?page=5)