# Self Referencing in the Third Person **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 4, 2006, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-referencing-in-the-third-person/382879 "2006-12-04T23:03:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Chez\_Guevara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/aeb1de/32.png) [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2006, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-referencing-in-the-third-person/382879/1 "2006-12-04T23:03:14Z")
Chez Guevara wishes to know whether there are any extant languages which do not benefit from the option of a first person singular form. His curiosity extends yet further. He desires to be informed whether any such languages have existed in the past. Finally, and thankfully, he has but one more question. Is there, or has there been, a stratum of society anywhere which employed the third person singular as a habit or custom, combined of course with calling oneself by one’s own name, when a perfectly good first person singular was available as an alternative? Chez Guevara knows full well that this is the just the kind of question that will have been asked on these boards before. Well, he can’t find it and so gets his apologies in first. He thanks you. ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2006, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-referencing-in-the-third-person/382879/2 "2006-12-04T23:14:42Z")
[QUOTE=Chez Guevara] Finally, and thankfully, he has but one more question. Is there, or has there been, a stratum of society anywhere which employed the third person singular as a habit or custom, combined of course with calling oneself by one’s own name, when a perfectly good first person singular was available as an alternative? [/QUOTE] Professional athlete. I seem to recall that, for instance, former NBA star Karl Malone loved to talk about what Karl Malone was feeling and what Karl Malone was thinking and what Karl Malone had for breakfast. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2006, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-referencing-in-the-third-person/382879/3 "2006-12-04T23:20:22Z")
> [@Chez](#): > > Finally, and thankfully, he has but one more question. Is there, or has there been, a stratum of society anywhere which employed the third person singular as a habit or custom, combined of course with calling oneself by one’s own name, when a perfectly good first person singular was available as an alternative? If “stratum of society” includes “particular social/professional context”, then yes. One example I can think of is that of medieval Indian authors writing “auto-commentaries” (i.e., commentaries on their own works) in classical Sanskrit. The convention of the commentarial genre is to refer to the author of the base-text in the third person (e.g., “[the base-text author] Devadatta says: [quote from Devadatta…] This means […] Now he [i.e., Devadatta] says: […]” and so on). This convention is followed even when the commentator is Devadatta himself. So the commentator is referring to the author, i.e., himself, in the third person. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2006, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-referencing-in-the-third-person/382879/4 "2006-12-04T23:23:26Z")
> [@Snooopy](#): > > I seem to recall that, for instance, former NBA star Karl Malone loved to talk about what Karl Malone was feeling and what Karl Malone was thinking and what Karl Malone had for breakfast. 1996 Presidential candidate Bob Dole did that too, provoking complaints such as [this](http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n6_v48/ai_18177779): > [@](#): > > BOB Dole’s habit of referring to himself in the third person is having such a disconcerting effect on the primaries that they will have to be renamed the tertiaries if he doesn’t cut it out. He sounds as if he really doesn’t want to be President, he just wants Bob Dole to be President. […] > > Object to his age and he will say “Bob Dole is rested and ready.” Call him a Washington insider and he will say “Bob Dole has been tested.” During one particularly bad week in January when he had to counter speculation that his campaign was bringing forth Lazarus, he said: “I don’t think people think Bob Dole is that bad.” Dunno if either of these individual examples really implies anything about a particular “stratum of society”, though. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2006, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-referencing-in-the-third-person/382879/5 "2006-12-04T23:40:40Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] Dunno if either of these individual examples really implies anything about a particular “stratum of society”, though. [/QUOTE] Sure it does. The “overly pretentious wanna be” stratum. ---
**Author:** ![Caridwen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c89c15/32.png) [@Caridwen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caridwen)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2006, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-referencing-in-the-third-person/382879/6 "2006-12-04T23:45:31Z")
Jamie Fox recently did this in an interview. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2006, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-referencing-in-the-third-person/382879/7 "2006-12-04T23:47:18Z")
I know that Korean and Japanese do have a third-person way of referring to oneself, but no one really uses it any more. It was used to lower yourself when talking to someone way above you. On a tangent, Korean has an odd way of referring to a third-person by way of a second-person pronoun in order to show respect to said third-person. It confused the hell out of me when I was taking Korean grammar. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2006, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-referencing-in-the-third-person/382879/8 "2006-12-04T23:56:04Z")
Interestingly, one of the traits exhibited by people with “classic” Asperger’s Syndrome is reference to themselves in the third person (see third paragraph [here](http://www.wisconsinmedicalsociety.org/savant/aspergers.cfm)). Perhaps this suggests that the use of the first person is almost hard-wired into us and only fails in circumstances of pathology. Just a WAG. ---
**Author:** ![jasonh300](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/46a35a/32.png) [@jasonh300](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasonh300)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-referencing-in-the-third-person/382879/9 "2006-12-05T01:14:48Z")
[QUOTE=Chez Guevara] Is there, or has there been, a stratum of society anywhere which employed the third person singular as a habit or custom, combined of course with calling oneself by one’s own name, when a perfectly good first person singular was available as an alternative? [/QUOTE] Mr. Rogers’ Neighborhood. 🙂 And the Aspergers reference also makes me think of Bob from the TV show “Becker” ---
**Author:** ![Chez\_Guevara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/aeb1de/32.png) [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-referencing-in-the-third-person/382879/10 "2006-12-05T01:25:59Z")
By ‘stratum of society’ I was thinking primarily of a group of people who communicate with each other in this way. For example there may be a reclusive Amazonian tribe whose leaders hold meetings at which, for whatever reason, each participant refers to him/herself in the third person. Maybe they talk like this when they aren’t in meetings as well. Who knows? That said, I also like the individual examples given upthread. A further question that now springs to mind is whether two people with Asperger’s Syndrome would converse in the third person. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-referencing-in-the-third-person/382879/11 "2006-12-05T01:40:53Z")
Jimmy likes Elaine! ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-referencing-in-the-third-person/382879/12 "2006-12-05T02:17:05Z")
In high school I knew a fella named Tom. Tom was quiet, had a dark deadpan sense of humor, and was in the habit of referring to himself as “Tom,” eg: “Tom’s very tired today,” or “Tom’s not looking forward to midterms.” Tom and I were going to play a bass clarinet duet at the band festival, except that the school only owned one bass clarinet, and I, a saxophone player, could not find a second in time. Tom was very good friends with this girl I had a toxic crush on, to the point where I would quiz Tom for what she was up to, how she was doing. etc. Tom later turned out to be gay, NTTAWWT. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-referencing-in-the-third-person/382879/13 "2006-12-05T03:02:47Z")
[QUOTE=Chez Guevara] Is there, or has there been, a stratum of society anywhere which employed the third person singular as a habit or custom, combined of course with calling oneself by one’s own name, when a perfectly good first person singular was available as an alternative? [/QUOTE] One is reminded of butlers in upper class British homes in the Victorian era and first half of the 20th century. Of course this may be more stereotype than actual fact. But this writer happened to see the Astaire/Rogers vehicle _Top Hat_ the other day, in which Eric Blore plays Astaire’s butler Bates, who famously says “We are Bates,” and has a running gag of referring to himself in the third person. Presumably this was playing on known perceptions of English butlers. (Unless this film created the stereotype from scratch.) Speaking of the English, the third person “one” construction (“one doesn’t like to blow one’s own horn”) is not uncommon among British speakers and writers. Of course, Queen Victoria famously said [“We are not amused,”](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a940415.html) suggesting that the Royal “we” may meet the criteria of the OP. Or so we believe. So perhaps the “stratum of society” **Chez** is looking for is “The British.” ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-referencing-in-the-third-person/382879/14 "2006-12-05T04:19:41Z")
But “we” isn’t third-person - it’s first-person-plural. It’s used to refer to oneself as the head of a certain group, hence the plural. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-referencing-in-the-third-person/382879/15 "2006-12-05T05:01:13Z")
Julius Caesar did it in his commentaries on the Gallic wars. > **[Commentarii de Bello Gallico](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commentarii_de_Bello_Gallico)** > > Commentarii de Bello Gallico (.mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}Classical Latin: \[kɔm.mɛnˈtaː.ɾi.iː deː ˈbɛl.loː ˈɡal.lɪ.koː\]; English: Commentaries on the Gallic War), also Bellum Gallicum (English: Gallic War), is Julius Caesar's firsthand account of the Gallic Wars, written as a third-person narrative. In it Caesar describes the bat... ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-referencing-in-the-third-person/382879/16 "2006-12-05T05:32:59Z")
[QUOTE=commasense] So perhaps the “stratum of society” **Chez** is looking for is “The British.” [/QUOTE] Maybe, but notice that **Chez** _is_ British. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-referencing-in-the-third-person/382879/17 "2006-12-05T06:33:15Z")
[QUOTE=Snooooopy] Professional athlete. I seem to recall that, for instance, former NBA star Karl Malone loved to talk about what Karl Malone was feeling and what Karl Malone was thinking and what Karl Malone had for breakfast. [/QUOTE] Rickey Henderson was notorious for doing this - I don’t know if he was the first, but he made it an art. Referring to oneself in the third person is apparently called illeism. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-referencing-in-the-third-person/382879/18 "2006-12-05T06:34:28Z")
When I say Rickey may have been the first, I meant among professional athletes. He’s been around a _long_ time, but I don’t think he was the first guy to ever refer to himself in the third person. ---
**Author:** ![Chez\_Guevara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/aeb1de/32.png) [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-referencing-in-the-third-person/382879/19 "2006-12-05T06:47:20Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] Referring to oneself in the third person is apparently called illeism. [/QUOTE] Thanks. The Wikipedia entry on [illeism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illeist) is revealing in what it lacks. Which is to say that it fails to mention any strata of society (or groups of people) who commonly and jointly exhibit this particular trait. ---
**Author:** ![Alive\_At\_Both\_Ends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@Alive\_At\_Both\_Ends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alive_At_Both_Ends)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-referencing-in-the-third-person/382879/20 "2006-12-05T13:59:15Z")
Authors of nonfiction books often refer to themselves within their books as “the author”, rather than using “I”. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/self-referencing-in-the-third-person/382879.md?page=2)