Selig's proposed realignment

I agree that Selig’s plan is goofy. Also, I like Kyla’s suggestion about getting 5 teams in each of 6 divisions. It’s unfair that it’s harder to make the playoffs in the National League than in the American League (and in divisions with more teams).

An interleague game every day would work out to a minimum of 162 interleague games. I think this year there’s 252 interleague games, with AL teams playing 18 each, 12 NL teams playing 15 & 4 NL teams playing 18. So the number of interleague games wouldn’t even have to increase.

One part of Selig’s proposal that fans like is to keep home & away 3-game interleague series of local teams, such as Yankees-Mets & Cubs-ChiSox. As there are now 14 AL teams & 16 NL teams, there must be at least 2 NL teams without such an opponent. Figuring out 15 sets of ‘local’ opponents is made easier by moving Arizona to the AL, making San Diego its opponent. The rest fall into place pretty naturally by rivalries within states/metropolitan areas except:
Detroit - Pittsburgh
Boston - Philadelphia
Baltimore - Atlanta
Seattle - Colorado

Kyla:

I don’t think it is, because unlike the lords of baseball, I don’t have a problem with an interleague game on every full schedule. But for some odd reason, they have some sort of bug up their behinds that this is a bad thing, in which case, I propose they go to 16 teams in each league instead of 14 in one, 16 in the other. And I don’t see further expansion as being a problematic dilution of talent.

Gazoo:

It’s fine on “interleague week”…but the lords of baseball don’t want “interleague week” all year long. If each league has an odd number of teams, then interleague games would have to be played at all times during the season.

Chaim Mattis Keller

Exactly, so where’s the problem with having an odd number of teams, so long as BOTH leagues have the same NUMBER of teams? During “interleague week” EVERY TEAM from each league plays against one from the other league. In 21 days of interleague play, EVERY team could play 21 interleague games. Total games = 2 teams per game x 15 games per day x 21 days = 630. Spread them out over the season however you want, three different weeks, one big three week chunk, whatever.

If you have 14 in one league and 16 in the other, it would seem to be more problematic because everytime you went to have interleague play, 2 teams would be sitting down each night. So in this case it would require more days to get the same number of interleague games. 2 teams per game x 14 games per day x 21 days = 588.

What am I missing?

Gazoo,

I enjoyed your work in the recent Flintstones movie.

Regarding your question, note that Mondays & Thursdays are usually the only scheduled off days during the baseball season. The other 5 days are rarely (if ever) scheduled as off days.

So, on a Sunday which is not in an interleague week, if you have 15 NL teams all playing, you must have an NL team which is not matched up against an NL team. The other 14 can play 7 games amongst themselves. Ditto for the 15 teams in the AL. The 2 unmatched teams would have to play each other if everyone plays that Sunday.

Knappy,
Thank you! That was the information I was not considering! This was actually starting to drive me to drink!! (okay, that’s a pretty easy task :smiley: ) That makes quite a difference.

Hmmm, well if it’s a choice between interleague games all season long or this bizarre 14/16 split, I’ll go with the interleague all year long.

Absofuckinglutely. I miss pennant races so bad, I could almost cry when I think about it. Baseball just isn’t the same without them. (IMO, the first round bye would also work with two divisions and a wild card, but I’d prefer seeing the WC die altogether.)

What bothers me with Selig’s restructuring is the increasingly transitory nature of each new setup. We had 8-10 teams in each league, with no divisions, for about 70 years. Then we had two 6-7 team divisions in each league for 25 years (1969-93). The current 3-division format dates from 1994, and if Selig has his way, it’ll be gone in a year or two. Then it’ll change yet again when MLB goes to 32 teams.

Baseball had done well by knowing when and how to change in necessary ways (e.g. night baseball, expansion to the west and south) while maintaining a strong connection to its rich tradition. With the wild card, the micro-divisions, and ever-changing divisional alignments, and over-long playoff games that start too late to begin with, MLB has lost its way, IMO.

I don’t see baseball having nearly as strong a core of fans ten years from now, and people who aren’t big fans will find that there are other places to go to for a good time besides the new wave of ballparks. At that point, I see baseball having a real problem on its hands.

OK… If you go to the two 15 team divisions you have 2 teams playing interleague almost constantly. I would think the American League cities would like having the chance to see Griffey or Big Mac.(again)

The only problem would be if you don’t want at least 2 teams involved in interleague play each week. So what if there is interleague play weekly. Happens that way in the NFL.
The Grand Old Game of Baseball needs to get down off its high horse and look itself square in the eye.

Hi, my name is Major League Baseball and I have a problem!
Well actually I have a lot of problems.

Baseball needs to:

Admit Interleague play is good for the game.

Expand the Strike zone

Get a DAMN SALARY CAP and make it a level playing field!!!

Many many more…too numerous to mention.

Suck it up and realign into 2 fifteen team leagues with 4 teams from each advancing. Hell you could even do 6 teams in each advancing if you really want to generate some cash. Sure somebody is going to be mad but it doesn’t matter what you do. You’re always going to make somebody mad. Whine, whine, whine that is all that happens.

I agree Selig’s plan has problems but don’t be too harsh on the guy. He loves the game as much as anyone. He is the one who moved the Brewers when (I forget who) the other team wouldn’t move. The only problem he may have is that he loves it too much and that sense of traditionalism clouds his judgement at times. The guy’s heart is in the right place.

The Pete Rose mess wasn’t his creation.

Baseball needs to figure it out before they have done irreversible harm. Hey, I am a Brewers fan(Go ahead blow off my arguments about Selig because of that) but it is kind of tough when I know right now that they won’t win the World Series NEXT year because they can’t afford to handpick the free agents they want.
Really I like Baseball and would prefer it to stick around but it is hard to get to fired up in the above situation. You feel like saying I don’t care what he does because either the Yankees or the Braves will buy the Series anyway.

We would likely be here all day and all night listing them. For instance, no other major professional league arbitrarily divides itself in half (roughly) and then has different rules for each half. I personally like the DH, growing up in an American League town, but I don’t feel particularly passionate about it. I do feel passionately that there ought to be one rule for both leagues - whatever that rule is.

To get back to the OP, IMHO what they need to do is realign dramatically along geographic principles. 2 Leagues, 3 Divisions, 5 Teams. Try to keep time zones consistent to cut down on travel time and late/early starts. Play an unbalanced schedule with many more games against division rivals than non-division opponents.

Problem: Different schedules may make it easier for a team from one division to win the wild card than another.
Response: Get over it. That’s the way it is in football, basketball, etc. and no one seems to mind particularly.

Problem: Everyone loses their traditional rivalries and allegiances.
Response: True. But, in a few years, people will generally develop new rivalries. A few inside pitches, a few brawls, a few close races and you’ll have a rivalry. Besides, I refuse to believe that the Kansas City-Minnesota games (to pull an example at random) really constitute a “rivalry”.

I’m sure there are many more problems, but let’s think progressively people and do what’s right for the long-term future of the game.

That leads to the primary problem with baseball. NOBODY thinks about the long-term future of the game. Every participant (commissioner, owners, players, agents, umpires) is looking out only for themselves and only for the short term. So, while I think my solution above would be a dramatic improvement, I recognize that it has absolutely no chance of happening. Frankly, I’ll be surprised if much of anything in the way of realignment ever does.

You’re right, Squooshed. In fact, you echoed some of my sentiments.

Amen, brother!

Perfect example: I happened to be out in Phoenix when the speculation abounded that any realignment would involve moving the Diamondbacks to the AL. Among the primary reasons they oppose the move, according to the Arizona Republic newspaper, is that there are no compelling teams or players in the AL West right now, and they fear it will turn off fans and cost them money.

Talk about short-sighted. Wait 3 years, idiots! Every division has its day. When has this not been the case?

I’d like to weigh in on the issue.

To truly effect the kind of change people want (more competition, better rivalries, exciting pennant races, meaningful games), I look at what I think MLB’s success was at the outset.

I think it was grounded in a sense of “league loyalty.” When the AL first started, and there were 8 teams in each league, the fixed universe on both sides of the aisle was quite parallel. 5 of the cities in each league had a representative in both (New York had three, if you count Brooklyn), so the fans in those markets had easy access to every player in both leagues. Because of that, and because there was initially a state of “war” between the leagues, fans tended to be more loyal to their team AND their league.

This was born of a sense of familiarity with the players within the league. Rivalries were more intense, because there were fewer teams and you played them more often. In the 8 team league/154 game format, you played every team 22 times a year. Its much easier to become familiar with your rivals when you play them that often, instead of the nonsense in today’s schedule.

I think the most effective way to realign is to go for a regional set-up. Trash the current AL and NL alignments, and radically re-align based on region. Expand to 32 teams, and go back to the 8 team format and the 154 game schedule. Forget interleague play, have 4 seperate leagues that don’t play each other at all. Or, if you must continue interleague play, make it as limited as possible.

The playoffs would be two tiered, with the 4 league winners playing for the World Series. No wild cards necessary.

For those who would claim traditional rivalires would be lost, I would say for the most part that would not be so. The regional alignments would assure that Dodgers/giants, Yankees/Red Sox, Cubs/Cards would continue. The only real change for AL fans would be the concept of hating the Yankees, and I think we’d all get over that after a few years. New rivalries (like Cubs/WhiteSox, Angels/Dodgers, Mets/Yankees) would soon make the old rivalries forgetable.
Some of the so called “rivalries” are only so when two teams are competing for the pennant (like the current White Sox/Indians rivalry. When I was a kid in the late 60s, that was never considered much of a match up). We’d all adjust.

The only reason there is a “baseball tradition” is the stability the 8 team per league format gave to baseball for nearly 70 years. Prior to that, no format lasted more than 8-10 years. Since 1969, the changes, while tolerable in some instances, have made league loyalty and traditional rivalries a joke. I’d be in favor of scrapping it all and starting over.

As an aside, no one has mentioned the possiblilty of “reverse expansion” to make this work. Back in 1899, the NL went from 12 teams to 8 to manage competition and make pennant races more interesting (if not to also cut back on the concept of “syndicate ball”). Why could’nt we take one or two of the current marginal teams (the Expos come to mind) and simply eliminate them? I know the players unon would find a way to object to that, but it would make it easier to balance the leagues in an attempt to realign.

Just thoughts from one who passes in and out here.

Contraction would be even worse than expansion. So what do you accomplish by getting rid of the Expos? They are actually a fairly good team. It’s just that they don’t draw well. The Athletics don’t draw well either, but they are pretty good.
If you wanted to get rid of the two worst teams that drew poorly in 1990, you could have picked the Braves and Indians. Hmm… They seem to be doing well now.

The 5-5-5 alignment would require two teams to play an interleague series to finish off the year. That could be interesting if you have a Mets-Yankees series or a Cubs-White Sox series deciding if someone makes the playoffs.

I don’t think a first round bye is a good idea. I think it is more likely to hurt the team with the bye than help it as pitchers will lose their rhythm

Agreed. Also, the first time baseball came up with a contraction plan, if a U.S. team was dropped, the Senator or Senators from the home state in question would start talking about revoking baseball’s anti trust exemption. MLB would give in, and not get rid of that team. (At least, this is what happened when the KC A’s up and moved to Oakland–the Royals were created in part as a reaction to threatened “anti-trust exemption hearings”, as I recall.

One possible problem with a salary cap is that you have the minor leagues to account for: unless you want to cap expenditures there as well. As it is, one of the most efficient ways to improve one’s team, in the long run, is to spend money on the minors judiciously. This is, in fact, one of the reasons, and a big one, for the Braves and Indians turnaround. Also the A’s present turnaround from being one of the doormats of the league. With respect to the present luxury tax which is intended to work similarly to a salary cap, one of the issues is that the smaller market teams take their share of the tax money and pocket it, as opposed to spending it to help level the playing
field as they were supposed to. At least, that’s what some of the “big market” teams are claiming.

Someone asked why Arizona was originally placed in the “wrong league”. I believe this was partly based on a desire to get Colangelo into MLB, and a deal was struck essentially guaranteeing him a few years in the NL before they could move him. Assuming this is correct, Colangelo knows this, but he still wants to leverage MLB from doing this by complaining. “Look what they’re doing to my poor team!”

Oh, and as for the arguments against realignment for the reasons that it destroys traditional rivalries, I agree that over time, new rivalries will be developed. The Braves-Mets are an excellent example of this.

Well, I think you guys have all done a great job of covering the pros and cons of the various plans.

I just wanted to weigh in with the opinion that the MLBPA plan (15 team leagues, just one team switching divisions) makes the most sense.

Bud Selig was in Chicago for the Cubs/ White Sox series last weekend. He came right out and said that he absolutely does not want to have an interleague game played all year long because it detracts from the drama.

This is absolute crap, as Costas points out in his book. If you are excited about the Cubs/ White Sox game, are you less thrilled because you realize that a plain old Mariners/Angels game is taking place that same day? That’s just plain stupid.

Yet Bud seems willing to create a rather tortured model which is so far from perfect as to be laughable, in order to keep interleague play happening all at once. Ugh.

I also wanted to recommend Costas’ book Fair Ball, if you are at all interested in the current state of the game. You might want to hit the library though, as it is a bit pricey for something I ripped through in about ninety minutes.

I must weigh in also and say that the best thing for baseball is to go withr 30 teams 6 by 5 or 32 teams 8 by 4. Hockey and basketball have it right, and football and baseball are all screwy. With 162 games, there’s still plenty of space for interleague play and intraleague play. Try this on for size:

30 teams in 6 divisions of 5:

15 games against teams in own division: 60
6 games against other teams in own league: 60
3 games against teams in other league: 42

That’s 165 games. Oh well, but it is the simplest rubric for asigning games where every team plays every other team for at least a three game series AND which favors intradivisional (and intraleague) play over interleague.

The solution is to expand to 32 teams and have four divisions in each league.

  1. The resulting talent dilution wouldn’t really be significant. Going from 28 (pre-Arizona and Tampa) to 32 in five years isn’t any worse than going from 20 to 24 in ONE year was, which they did in 1969. Yes, offense is way up now; it was up in 1930, too. These things go in cycles.

  2. Having four divisions per league brings back pennant races (yay) and eliminates the wild card (boo.)

The only disadvantage to this is that many inferior teams would make the playoffs in place of superior teams; the Royals would win a division with 84 wins while the Expos get knocked out with 96 or something. But, well, so what? The Giants missed the playoffs in 1993 with 103 wins but it made for a hell of a race, didn’t it?

If you want to reduce the chances of a 79-83 team fluking through the playoffs and winning the World Series, have some REAL home field advantage. Say that in the first round the worst division champion and the best division champion play every game in the best champion’s park, or something like that.

I’d design baseball’s divisions like this:

National League East - New York Mets, Montreal Expos, Philadelphia Phillies, Pittsburgh Pirates

NL South - Atlanta Braves, Florida Marlins, St. Louis Cardinals, Expansion Team (I’d like Carolina or Louisville)

NL Central - Houston Astros, Cincinnati Reds, Chicago Cubs, Milwaukee Brewers

NL West - L.A. Dodgers, S.F. Giants, San Diego Padres, Colorado Rockies

American League East - New York Yankees, Boston Red Sox, Toronto Blue Jays, Detroit Tigers

American League Southeast - Baltimore Orioles, Cleveland Indians, Tampa Bay Devil Rays, Expansion Team - hell, let’s give another team to Washington/Virginia.

American LEague Central - Kansas City Royals, Minnesota Twins, Chicago White Sox, Texas Rangers

American League West - Oakland A’s, Arizona Diamondbacks, Anaheim Angels, Seattle Mariners

This keeps the teams as close to each other in time zone (which means MILLIONS in TV revenue) as possible. The only problem is the A.L. Southeast, which is kind of a grab bag. There are too many northeast teams in the AL. Anyone see how I can improve this?

It’s not a bad realignment except that the Cardinals and Cubs would insist on being in the same division. Cincinnati would be a better fit for the South division as historically the Reds have had a fair amount of support in the South.
Also the Reds play in the Eastern Time Zone, while the Cardinals play in the Central.
The NL East would probably turn into the New York Mets Invitational as the Mets can outspend the Pirates, Phillies, and Expos. Of course, the Mets don’t always spend wisely.

Also, if you move Arizona to the AL, you would probably have to move Tampa Bay to the NL or else you will end up pissing off both owners. The Marlins and Devil Rays probably should be in the same division so they will have some excuse for fans to show up at their games to watch the “Florida Series.”

RickJay:

Or how about Tenessee? Nashville and Memphis seem to be growing areas.

Chaim Mattis Keller

Replying to both Bob and Keller;

BOB: You’re right; the Cards and Cubs start screaming if you suggest busting them up. My instinct is to say screw 'em, but you could switch Cincy and St. Louis if you granted the Reds something in return. Or you could put Expansion Team 1 in the Central to start with.

KELLER: Good point; I forgot about Tennessee. Either Nashville or Memphis would be good candidates for major league teams.

Another option - hear me out here - is Mexico City. I’m firmly convinced it would be a tremendously successful team. I know Mexicans are relatively poor, but in a city with 25,000,000 people there are probably MORE middle-class folk than there are in Kansas City in total, which is what matters, and cheap seats bring in the bucks too. You’d have a level of regional support based on nationalism that would boost revenue too. It would be a launching pad like Colorado, but so what? Nothing like a little international flavour.

[slight hijack]
This alone is almost enough to make me favor Mexico City.

I HATE Coors Field. Not because it increases offense (I don’t mind slugfests), but because Coors Field is so unlike other parks in terms of it’s effect on run scoring. Having it so “out in left field” by itself, in terms of affecting offense, is a complete joke.

I’m not trying to espouse all parks being the same in terms of characteristics, and I’m no more against an extreme hitter’s park than an extreme pitcher’s park. But Colorado’s park effects compared to other parks is an embarrassment. “Let’s see, Todd Helton hit .400 but he played half his games in Coors. Tony Gwynn’s .355 is a lot more impressive.”

I disagree strongly with having divisions with only 4 teams, because with that few teams there is not much chance of having a tight pennant race. I think you need at least 5-6 teams within a division to make a tight race over a 160 game season.