# Sell me a fuel-efficient car, please! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 29, 2008, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146 "2008-10-29T21:14:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2008, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/41 "2008-10-30T19:06:01Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Well, if you can wait a year or two, you should be able to buy [Aptera](http://www.autobloggreen.com/category/aptera/), [VentureOne](http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/08/22/venture-vehicles-gets-6-million-in-venture-capital/), [RaVen](http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/06/02/introducing-the-corbin-raven-a-three-wheeled-100-mpg-vehicle/), or the [1L](http://gas2.org/2008/05/07/vw-confirms-1l-concept-will-become-reality-in-2010/). Or if you don’t want to wait that long, you can [build your own.](http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/08/16/video-225-mpg-diy-diesel-hybrid-on-the-road-kit-version-coming/) (IMHO, I’d stay away from the RaVen.) Why do people always go for extremes?? I don’t want some bleeding-edge high-tech gadget. I just want something simple, based on proven technology. Something like the [Toyota Aygo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Aygo) would do nicely for me, and I suspect for many Americans. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2008, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/42 "2008-10-30T19:12:31Z")
The electric cars from Tesla are 100 thou race cars. Why don’t they make a cheaper small car? Thats where the market would be. They might have problems with mass production. Big investment,big rewards. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2008, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/43 "2008-10-30T19:12:37Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Why do people always go for extremes?? I don’t want some bleeding-edge high-tech gadget. I just want something simple, based on proven technology. Something like the [Toyota Aygo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Aygo) would do nicely for me, and I suspect for many Americans. Well, Ford may or may not be bringing some of their smaller cars to the US. I’m rather biased against Ford, so its not something that I’d consider. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2008, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/44 "2008-10-30T19:22:17Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The electric cars from Tesla are 100 thou race cars. Why don’t they make a cheaper small car? Thats where the market would be. They might have problems with mass production. Big investment,big rewards. [They’re working on it.](http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/10/25/rendered-speculation-roadandtrack-gives-their-take-on-tesla-model/) That is, if you consider a $60K car “cheap.” Car companies ain’t cheap to start. Its not like a software company that you can launch with just the PC in your apartment. To create a **full line** car company, which sells vehicles in the sub $20K range would probably cost in the neighborhood of a billion or more, depending upon the design and where you built the cars. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2008, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/45 "2008-10-30T19:33:37Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Not necessarily. The EPA has adjusted figures on their website (since they changed how they calculate them recently) and some older model cars do still come out quite good in comparision to modern cars. Also, older model cars tend to have _lower_ HP engines, so they’re not quite as thirsty as modern cars. > > Not really, and certainly _not_ in relation to cars built before the 1970s, when things like seatbelts, crumple zones, anti-lock brakes, and dual master cylinders were either optional or didn’t exist. The very best MPG the 1987 Chvy Nova is rated for is 29; > **[Gas Mileage of 1987 Vehicles by Chevrolet](https://www.fueleconomy.gov/Feg/bymake/Chevrolet1987.shtml)** > > Search by Manufacturer. Search by make for fuel efficient new and used cars and trucks Hardly “50 mph on the highway and 40-45 in the city”. Not that 29 isn’t decent, mind you, but hardly great for a 4 cyl car. Today’s Aveo is rated for 34 MPG. In other words, the newer car makes 5MPG _better_, not 16 MPG less. Nor did it come with crumple zones, or anti-lock brakes. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2008, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/46 "2008-10-30T19:35:01Z")
> [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](#): > > They sell them in Europe and Japan because fuel costs 2 to 3 times as much there as it does in the US. There isn’t really a market for that sort of thing in North America. Fuel is just too cheap. > > Each different engine/transmission combo also requires a separate slate of expensive tests, which is why cars that are available with manual transmissions in the rest of the world are often only available as automatics in North America. > > It works in reverse too. You can’t buy cars like the Honda Accord coupe, Mitsubishi Eclipse, or Toyota Camry Solara in the rest of the world, people in other countries have little interest in enormous gas guzzling FWD 2 door coupes that Americans love. They are made in the US specifically for obese North Americans. Good troll. Starts off fairly reasonable then veers off in an unexpected direction in the last paragraph by citing the Accord, the Eclipse, and the Solara as examples of gas guzzlers rather than the usual suspect, the SUV. Ends by personally insulting drivers of said vehicles by calling them fat. On the whole, I’d give it an 8. Incidentally, my opinion probably doesn’t count since I’m one of those wastrels who drives a Solara but I am neither obese and get 27 MPG. If you’re going to point fingers, do it to those people who insist on driving SUVs despite never encountering anything rougher than a parking lot speed bump. I see a lot more SUV’s than Solara-type cars on the road. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2008, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/47 "2008-10-30T19:35:24Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > I think your post illustrates my point; Americans are so used to gas-guzzlers that a Tercel is considered fuel-efficient. The '99 Tercel was [rated at 29 mpg](http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/14933.shtml); if’s pretty sad that there was nothing more efficient available that year. > No, there really aren’t many, especially if the price tag and seating capacity are also concerns. As far as I can tell, there are only 4 cars available in the US that get over 40 mpg hwy: Smart car, Prius, Accord Hybrid and the Jetta diesel. The Smart is a 2-seater; the hybrids are rather large and expensive cars. The Jetta does look OK, but still bigger and more expensive than I want. Yeah, I see both of your points. It’s looking like a chicken and egg problem; do we not have more options for fuel efficient cars here because people don’t buy them, or do people not buy them because they aren’t available here? I think the car-buying public has a long way to go to get out of the big car, big SUV, big truck mindset. One point, though; we do drive a lot further in North America than Europeans or Asian people. My husband and I take a couple thousand mile road trip as a vacation every year (instead of flying, which is arguably much worse than using a car for vacationing). We aren’t going to do that in a Smart car. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2008, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/48 "2008-10-30T19:46:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The very best MPG the 1987 Chvy Nova is rated for is 29; > [Gas Mileage of 1987 Vehicles by Chevrolet](http://www.fueleconomy.gov/Feg/bymake/Chevrolet1987.shtml) > > Hardly “50 mph on the highway and 40-45 in the city”. Not that 29 isn’t decent, mind you, but hardly great for a 4 cyl car. Today’s Aveo is rated for 34 MPG. In other words, the newer car makes 5MPG _better_, not 16 MPG less. > > Nor did it come with crumple zones, or anti-lock brakes. Note I _did_ say “some.” Scrolling down your link, I note a number of cars which got 30+ MPG. Which puts them on par with current cars. I also would say that seatbelts are a bigger lifesaver than ABS or crumple zones. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2008, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/49 "2008-10-30T19:52:48Z")
> [@featherlou](#): > > It’s looking like a chicken and egg problem; do we not have more options for fuel efficient cars here because people don’t buy them, or do people not buy them because they aren’t available here? I think the car-buying public has a long way to go to get out of the big car, big SUV, big truck mindset. > > One point, though; we do drive a lot further in North America than Europeans or Asian people. My husband and I take a couple thousand mile road trip as a vacation every year (instead of flying, which is arguably much worse than using a car for vacationing). We aren’t going to do that in a Smart car. It’s hard to get a high MPG car and harder to get a deal on one. I tried to get a deal (price or financing) on Chevy Malibu Hybrid or a Saturn Aura greenline- they had deals galore on the regular versions, but nothing on the Hybrids. Those big gas guzzlers are now running $10,000 off MSRP in the paper, and no discounts at on on the high milage cars. Yes, the Smart car _isn’t_. It’s cute, that’s about it. The Fit & the regular Civic get 35 MPG or so, the Hybrid Civic is 45. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2008, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/50 "2008-10-30T20:21:36Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The very best MPG the 1987 Chvy Nova is rated for is 29; > [Gas Mileage of 1987 Vehicles by Chevrolet](http://www.fueleconomy.gov/Feg/bymake/Chevrolet1987.shtml) > > Hardly “50 mph on the highway and 40-45 in the city”. Not that 29 isn’t decent, mind you, but hardly great for a 4 cyl car. Today’s Aveo is rated for 34 MPG. In other words, the newer car makes 5MPG _better_, not 16 MPG less. > > Nor did it come with crumple zones, or anti-lock brakes. I don’t care what your cite says, that car got better than 40 mpg _routinely_. I measured it many times, as did my sister, who owned it before me. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2008, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/51 "2008-10-30T20:28:03Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I don’t care what your cite says, that car got better than 40 mpg _routinely_. I measured it many times, as did my sister, who owned it before me. No doubt that a car can get better MPG with a careful driver, but then a newer car with a high MPG rating should also do better driven in the same way. So if you got 40 MPG in that car, you should get nearly 50 in a Fit (etc) -assuming you drive it the same way. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2008, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/52 "2008-10-30T20:30:33Z")
With many cars, it really is amazing how much difference the transmission makes to fuel economy. When we lived in Baltimore, we didn’t own a car, but we often used a friend’s 2001 Honda Civic automatic. Whenever we used it, i would keep track of our mileage, and it was fairly common to get only about 24mpg around town. When we arrived in San Diego, we bought a 1998 Civic. Basically the same car, just a few years older, and with a 5-speed manual transmission. We’ve had it for a couple of months now, and we’ve driven it about 1100 miles per month, about 2/3 freeway and 1/3 city driving. Over that period we’ve averaged almost exactly 35mpg. The worst mileage we’ve achieved between refills is 33.2, and the best was 36.1. (My Excel gas spreadsheet also has a cost-per-mile calculator. In the last two months, declining gas prices have reduced our cost from 11.5c per mile to 7.8c) I’m willing to bet that the manual/auto discrepancy in gas consumption is not as great for some newer cars, especially those (like the Fit) with 5-speed automatics or CVTs. But for older cars, the difference between a 3- or 4-speed auto and a 5-speed manual is quite significant. Of course, if i were stuck in bumper-to-bumper rush-hour traffic every day, i might opt for an auto anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Jayn\_Newell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jayn\_Newell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayn_Newell)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2008, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/53 "2008-10-30T20:36:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It’s hard to get a high MPG car and harder to get a deal on one. I tried to get a deal (price or financing) on Chevy Malibu Hybrid or a Saturn Aura greenline- they had deals galore on the regular versions, but nothing on the Hybrids. > > Those big gas guzzlers are now running $10,000 off MSRP in the paper, and no discounts at on on the high milage cars. Someone’s buying the high-mileage cars, that’s for sure. Our local Toyota dealer can’t keep the Prius’ on the lot hardly–most people who want one wind up on a waiting list (though we were reeeeeeally lucky to skip that part). When we were shopping, there were roughly three unclaimed Prius’ on the lot–two with the top level of extras, and one that had just arrived about a half hour before we did, which we got to drive back home 😃 ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2008, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/54 "2008-10-30T20:37:01Z")
> [@featherlou](#): > > It’s looking like a chicken and egg problem; do we not have more options for fuel efficient cars here because people don’t buy them, or do people not buy them because they aren’t available here? There’s also a cultural/peer pressure in America that says cars must have lots of power. It seems any car that doesn’t do 0-60 in 10 seconds gets reviewed and labeled as underpowered, or even dangerous (e.g. the first reply in this thread). ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2008, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/55 "2008-10-30T23:53:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I was just talking to my (English) brother and his wife about this- they’re visiting for a few weeks. They can’t help but chuckle when they see ads that treat ~30 mpg fuel economy as a selling point. > > Elsewhere in the world, if your (smaller than, say, a BMW 5-series) car gets 30mpg, you don’t mention it if you want to sell any of them. Is your English brother also aware that the American gallon is smaller? 30 mpg in America is like 37.5 in England. ---
**Author:** ![zenith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zenith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zenith)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/56 "2008-10-31T14:55:46Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I don’t care what your cite says, that car got better than 40 mpg _routinely_. I measured it many times, as did my sister, who owned it before me. You and I must “baby” our cars. I’ve been flamed on auto-related boards for insisting that I got better than 30mpg in-town in a 4-cylinder, automatic, rental '06 Malibu. The GM-haters insist that because EPA ratings are much lower, I couldn’t have achieved 32 mpg by the car’s trip computer and 31.2 via the old reliable pencil/paper/long division route. But I did. I have a Pontiac Aztek that “old EPA” rates @ 19/26 and "new EPA rates@17/24. Unless the average outdoor temperature drops below 10 above, I never get under 20 in town (I average 22). My worst winter mileage in 4 years is 17.8. My highway mileage has run as high as 29.8 with an average of “old EPA’s” 26. We don’t travel light, but we do try to set the cruise @ 65 and avoid cheating TOO much. (My love of speed is at constant war w/my with my sense of frugality.) According to my experience,if you live where the heat and humidity are unbearable for most of the summer, go for a LARGER engine. My 4-cylinder, 5-speed stickshift Ranger loses 3-4 mpg town mileage with AC on; the Pontiac w/ V-6 and auto loses \<1. BTW, did you achieve 40+ with or without AC? And did you experience a big dropoff @ low temps ? ---
**Author:** ![Scarlett67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scarlett67/32/7387_2.png) [@Scarlett67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarlett67)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/57 "2008-10-31T15:53:00Z")
Our 2008 Chevy Aveo got 41+ mpg on a recent tank. But on the last mileage check it was down to about 35. Our 1995 Ford Aspire used to get 50 mpg regularly; these days it’s down to 39. Gotta take it in for a tuneup. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/58 "2008-10-31T16:18:06Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > [They’re working on it.](http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/10/25/rendered-speculation-roadandtrack-gives-their-take-on-tesla-model/) That is, if you consider a $60K car “cheap.” Car companies ain’t cheap to start. Its not like a software company that you can launch with just the PC in your apartment. To create a **full line** car company, which sells vehicles in the sub $20K range would probably cost in the neighborhood of a billion or more, depending upon the design and where you built the cars. The Volt is overpriced at 40 k. Tesla should get involved in mass production. There are plenty of empty auto plants that could be refitted . Mass production is a technology of it’s own. Tesla would have to seek auto engineers. There are a lot of them unemployed who would be happy to work for an electric car company. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/59 "2008-10-31T18:51:56Z")
> [@zenith](#): > > You and I must “baby” our cars. > > I’ve been flamed on auto-related boards for insisting that I got better than 30mpg in-town in a 4-cylinder, automatic, rental '06 Malibu. The GM-haters insist that because EPA ratings are much lower, I couldn’t have achieved 32 mpg by the car’s trip computer and 31.2 via the old reliable pencil/paper/long division route. But I did. > > I have a Pontiac Aztek that “old EPA” rates @ 19/26 and "new EPA rates@17/24. > > Unless the average outdoor temperature drops below 10 above, I never get under 20 in town (I average 22). My worst winter mileage in 4 years is 17.8. > > My highway mileage has run as high as 29.8 with an average of “old EPA’s” 26. > We don’t travel light, but we do try to set the cruise @ 65 and avoid cheating TOO much. Your MPGs are reasonable. But my point isn’t that a driver could not get better milage in a certain car (they can) but it was in rebutal to the statement that the cars of the 80’s got much better milage than cars of today- based upon someone remembering they got great MPG two decades ago. The same class car today gets better than it’s predessor in the 80’s and is much safer to boot. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/60 "2008-10-31T19:13:04Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > There’s also a cultural/peer pressure in America that says cars must have lots of power. It seems any car that doesn’t do 0-60 in 10 seconds gets reviewed and labeled as underpowered, or even dangerous (e.g. the first reply in this thread). True enough. One thing that really bugs me about us driving our little Toyotas is that we are sitting ducks on the road for everyone else in their huge consumptionmobiles. The safety ratings on Toyotas are great, but Tercel vs. Yukon Denial? We all know how that plays out, and I hate that our responsible choices leave us in the position of being hurt by someone else’s less responsible choice. Plus we can’t see in front of us most of the time, and that’s dangerous, too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146.md?page=4)