# Sell me a fuel-efficient car, please! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 29, 2008, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146 "2008-10-29T21:14:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/61 "2008-10-31T19:41:05Z")
Get a VW with the TDI Diesel engine. Up to 50MPG on diesel, more than makes up for the increased cost of diesel fuel (do the math), and no battery-dependent hybrid systems to worry about. Batteries will go bad at some point and it will be expen$ive. ---
**Author:** ![Necros](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/necros/32/11086_2.png) [@Necros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necros)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/62 "2008-10-31T19:55:43Z")
> [@zenith](#): > > You and I must “baby” our cars. > > I’ve been flamed on auto-related boards for insisting that I got better than 30mpg in-town in a 4-cylinder, automatic, rental '06 Malibu. The GM-haters insist that because EPA ratings are much lower, I couldn’t have achieved 32 mpg by the car’s trip computer and 31.2 via the old reliable pencil/paper/long division route. But I did. It is interesting to do some browsing on the EPA’s [http://www.fueleconomy.gov](http://www.fueleconomy.gov) website. They offer the EPA estimated city, highway and combined numbers, but the real value is in comparing what the EPA estimates are with the average fuel economy of people who post to report their mileage. Though it may be slightly self-selecting, and is based on small sample sizes, there is often a great disparity in values, suggesting EPA numbers ain’t all that. As an example, the EPA value for one of our cars, a 2005 Honda S2000, is 17 city, 23 highway, with an EPA combine estimated of 20 MPG. If you look at what drivers have reported, however, you find a low of 25 and a high of 32 with an average of 28.2. We have never gotten less than 29 MPG in combined city/highway driving, and it is usually right between 30 and 31. A few tanks ago, we got two solid tanks of 33-34 MPG. This is in a 240-hp rear-wheel-drive convertible sportscar, and I don’t drive like a grandma or use hypermiling techniques. I am not impressed with 34 out of a piece-of-crap Aveo. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/63 "2008-10-31T20:12:40Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > Get a VW with the TDI Diesel engine. As far as I know, the only VW with a TDI Diesel _currently available in the US_ is the Jetta. It has 6% better gas mileage than the Honda Fit, a difference that doesn’t even make up for the (currently) higher cost of diesel fuel. I also notice that according to [fueleconomy.gov](http://fueleconomy.gov), the Jetta actually has a higher carbon footprint than the Fit. I presume that’s because a gallon of diesel contains more carbon than a gallon of petrol? ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/64 "2008-10-31T20:21:53Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > As far as I know, the only VW with a TDI Diesel _currently available in the US_ is the Jetta. It has 6% better gas mileage than the Honda Fit, a difference that doesn’t even make up for the (currently) higher cost of diesel fuel. > > I also notice that according to [fueleconomy.gov](http://fueleconomy.gov), the Jetta actually has a higher carbon footprint than the Fit. I presume that’s because a gallon of diesel contains more carbon than a gallon of petrol? The Jetta TDI should easily take you over 200,000 miles, and is a more substantial car though. ---
**Author:** ![Keweenaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Keweenaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keweenaw)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/65 "2008-10-31T20:25:01Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > OK, I can _maybe_ understand that American car makers thought there’s not much demand for small cars, and didn’t invest in developing them. > > I suppose I can also understand that some small cars available overseas aren’t designed to meet US safety requirements. > > But there are many small cars that _are_ available in the US, but only with huge gas-guzzling engines. What the hell is the deal? Just sell me the same small car, with the same small engine you sell it with in Europe! Yes, it means providing repair/service support for one more engine, but surely there’s enough sales to justify that, especially with the high fuel cost? > > Case in point: I love the look of the Volvo C30, and so does my wife, which never happens. I’d buy it in a heartbeat if they’d sell the 1.6-liter diesel version in the US. But no, the only engine available is the **2.5-liter turbo**. > > It’s even true for the Honda Fit. Yes, the US version is pretty fuel-efficient, but the base model sold in Japan - with 1.3 liter engine and CVT - is **50% more** efficient than the US configuration (according to the specs on their Japanese web site). It’s a similar story for _Smart Car_! > > I’m completely disgusted by this trend, and turned off of all new cars available today. I guess I’ll be keeping my 25-year old car for now, it gets 30 mpg city and nothing available new today is worth replacing it with. [GM has 18 models for 2009 that get 30+ mpg](http://www.articlesbase.com/cars-articles/18-gm-models-that-get-30-mpg-or-better-562801.html) so in reality there are lots of domestic options out there. > [@gonzomax](#): > > The Volt is overpriced at 40 k. [Tax incentives for the Volt will be around $7500](http://gas2.org/2008/10/03/chevy-volt-now-750000-cheaper-thanks-to-tax-credit-via-bailout-bill/) Now $32,500 is still a lot for a car, but if you can use it within a 20 mile commute you’ll never need to hit the gas station. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/66 "2008-10-31T20:55:49Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > As far as I know, the only VW with a TDI Diesel _currently available in the US_ is the Jetta. It has 6% better gas mileage than the Honda Fit, a difference that doesn’t even make up for the (currently) higher cost of diesel fuel. > > I also notice that according to [fueleconomy.gov](http://fueleconomy.gov), the Jetta actually has a higher carbon footprint than the Fit. I presume that’s because a gallon of diesel contains more carbon than a gallon of petrol? Diesel probably does, but you can minimize that by using a biodiesel blend of fuel (VW refuses to make the minor changes which would allow you to burn straight biodiesel for some reason). > [@control-z](#): > > The Jetta TDI should easily take you over 200,000 miles, and is a more substantial car though. The Honda will do the same, though insurance and repair costs might be different. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/67 "2008-10-31T21:01:30Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > There’s also a cultural/peer pressure in America that says cars must have lots of power. It seems any car that doesn’t do 0-60 in 10 seconds gets reviewed and labeled as underpowered, or even dangerous (e.g. the first reply in this thread). Almost **all** American production cars can accomplish 0-60 in 10 seconds or less. That is NOT fast, at all, nor is it conducive to a short on-ramp merge onto an expressway where people are doing 70 mph, either, so in that respect, that IS kinda dangerous. A **fast** 0-60 time would be generally anything 6 seconds or faster. Most cars (not SUV’s, vans, etc) manage somewhere between 7 and 9 seconds, while also maintaining decent fuel economy. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/68 "2008-10-31T21:03:24Z")
> [@Necros](#): > > It is interesting to do some browsing on the EPA’s [http://www.fueleconomy.gov](http://www.fueleconomy.gov) website. They offer the EPA estimated city, highway and combined numbers, but the real value is in comparing what the EPA estimates are with the average fuel economy of people who post to report their mileage. Though it may be slightly self-selecting, and is based on small sample sizes, there is often a great disparity in values, suggesting EPA numbers ain’t all that. > > As an example, the EPA value for one of our cars, a 2005 Honda S2000, is 17 city, 23 highway, with an EPA combine estimated of 20 MPG. If you look at what drivers have reported, however, you find a low of 25 and a high of 32 with an average of 28.2. > > We have never gotten less than 29 MPG in combined city/highway driving, and it is usually right between 30 and 31. A few tanks ago, we got two solid tanks of 33-34 MPG. This is in a 240-hp rear-wheel-drive convertible sportscar, and I don’t drive like a grandma or use hypermiling techniques. I am not impressed with 34 out of a piece-of-crap Aveo. 🙂 The S2000 is a nice car, and a blast to drive. I find it hard to believe that the EPA rated it’s MPG so low…they must have really been putting their foot into it! Normal driving in that Honda should result in about 30mpg, which is about what you have stated. And Aveos ARE junk. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/69 "2008-10-31T22:21:11Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Almost **all** American production cars can accomplish 0-60 in 10 seconds or less. That is NOT fast, at all… I’m still convinced that’s faster than necessary. And as you say, I don’t even have the option to buy a slower and more efficient car. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/70 "2008-10-31T22:52:29Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > I’m still convinced that’s faster than necessary. And as you say, I don’t even have the option to buy a slower and more efficient car. _“nor is it conducive to a short on-ramp merge onto an expressway where people are doing 70 mph, either, so in that respect, that IS kinda dangerous.”_ Quoting myself…did you just gloss over that part? If you live in America, a certain, reasonable amount of power is generally safer for certain driving conditions. I understand where you’re coming from…I went from a huge Crown Victoria to a Scion Xa, a TINY car that makes all of 103hp with a 1.3L engine…and gets about 40mpg with a 5-speed. Why don’t you look for a used one of those? It’s made by Toyota, has a reasonable stereo, comes standard with power locks, mirrors, windows, a/c, etc…for about 14k brand new. ---
**Author:** ![butler1850](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@butler1850](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butler1850)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/71 "2008-10-31T23:00:56Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I don’t buy that at all. People want higher mileage cars. Detroit says they don’t, and Detroit is heading into the toilet because they seem to be 100% wrong about every decision they make. > > My 1987 Chevy Nova, which was a co-design with Toyota, got 50 mph on the highway and 40-45 in the city. That’s about as good as a Prius without any new technology. Have we entered some Automotive Dark Ages and lost our knowledge? > [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I don’t care what your cite says, that car got better than 40 mpg _routinely_. I measured it many times, as did my sister, who owned it before me. Sounds like Boyo Jim and I had the same experience, but mine was with a [Ford Festiva](http://www.fueleconomy.gov/Feg/noframes/4248.shtml). Though the “modified EPA estimates”, certainly don’t jibe with what I experienced. It was my first “new car” in 1988, while I was a freshman in college. Cost me $5000 at the time, and I routinely got 44mpg. I was a religious tracker of gas mileage, and am to this day, as I’ve always believed that a reduction/change in MPG is one of the best indicators of something “not right” with your car. Especially when you tend to do the same drive, day after day, after day… My only variations came during weeks of extreme traffic (rare with the routes I traveled). The whole car weighed 1800# with a full load of fuel, so the small engine moved it around just fine. I’m sure it wouldn’t pass modern crash tests, but it was nicely stripped down, efficeint, and cost effective means of transport. It lasted me until 186K miles, and I only sold it because 7 years later, I had a job that required lots of driving, in a suit, in the summer… the car had no A/C. :mad: I miss that car to this day. I’d love to see a return of small, inexpensive cars with few options, that get great gas mileage. I’d also like to see a diesel version of the Subaru Baja (truck/car combo, which was discontinued just before gas prices went up due to lack of sales, though if they had ADVERTISED it, they’d have sold more.) I don’t want to drive a big truck, but I want an open bed for all the “messy stuff” that being a homeowner/hunter involves… (trash, fertilizer, bulky items, dead animals). Additionally, I’d say that if you NEED a car that accelerates as fast as most North American cars, then you aren’t planning your driving well enough. Proper spacing gives time to accelerate… proper speed at the middle of the onramp insures proper merging speed at the merge point. (YMMV, as I understand not all ramps provide easy merging, but if it’s that busy, you probably don’t need to get to 60mph anyway.) ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/72 "2008-10-31T23:33:56Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Perversely, I would be glad if Americans were less interested in fuel-efficient vehicles. I was thinking about buying a Honda Fit but didn’t want to pay a premium just because they’re suddenly popular. The Fit’s popularity isn’t sudden. They were waiting-list popular when they first rolled out on American lots 2 years ago. It took me a couple of months and half a dozen dealerships just to find one to look at in person, much less test drive. When my mom was looking at cars last summer, her local Honda dealer still had a waiting list for Fits. It’s an insanely great little car, though. I’m specially fond of pulling ours up to the hardware store, watching the guys on the loading dock insist that I _cannot_ fit that bale of wire/lumber/piece of equipment into that car, and proving them wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/73 "2008-10-31T23:46:37Z")
Just a note, availability isn’t a measure of popularity. Honda Fits and Toyota Priuses were hard to get because they never expected to sell many in the first place, so they never brought over that many on the boat. Honda has sold 73,000 Fits in the US so far, with about 45,000 in 2007. To put that into perspective, Ford sold about that many F-series trucks _per month_ in 2007. ---
**Author:** ![Hockey\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a183cd/32.png) [@Hockey\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hockey_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/74 "2008-10-31T23:48:08Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Point I think the OP is making is, 20 years ago, we used to be able to get 40 mpg cars over here, and you can still find plenty of them in Europe and Asia. So when did 30 (mpg) become the new 40? When the safety standards changed so much that the cars were made heavier because of them. Saturn used to make a vehicle called the S-Series. Small and efficient with 5 star crash test ratings for that time. They got around 40mpg easy. The safety standards that were to be implemented for the 2003 model year changed to such a degree that the S-Series was replaced with the ION. They couldn’t bring the S-Series cars up to the new safety standards with what was the design at the time. They had to make a whole new car for the segment. The ION can get up to 34mpg, but it has now been replaced with the ASTRA. Times have changed, but you still have lots of vehicle choices that average above 30mpg. You just have to look for them. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/75 "2008-11-01T00:07:37Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > [They’re working on it.](http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/10/25/rendered-speculation-roadandtrack-gives-their-take-on-tesla-model/) That is, if you consider a $60K car “cheap.” Car companies ain’t cheap to start. Its not like a software company that you can launch with just the PC in your apartment. To create a **full line** car company, which sells vehicles in the sub $20K range would probably cost in the neighborhood of a billion or more, depending upon the design and where you built the cars. > [@gonzomax](#): > > The Volt is overpriced at 40 k. Tesla should get involved in mass production. There are plenty of empty auto plants that could be refitted . Mass production is a technology of it’s own. Tesla would have to seek auto engineers. There are a lot of them unemployed who would be happy to work for an electric car company. As **Tf** said, it doesn’t work that way. Getting involved in large scale production requires massive investment- when you produce a few sports cars, they don’t have to meet the same type approval standards (crash testing, emissions, etc., not that emissions are an issue). Anyway, if all you’re making is cheap electric cars, what happens if you roll your product out and it flops? You’re out hundreds of millions, and probably billions. Consider this - Honda, GM and Toyota have all been pouring billions into developing viable electric cars, and none of them have cracked it yet. Unemployed engineers who don’t know anything about electric drivetrains are not going to be very useful to you. They’re mostly going to be standing around, going “well, if this was an internal combustion engine, we’d do it this way.” Hell, most car companies have to call in third party vendors like Orbital just to help them develop two-stroke _gasoline_ engines. > [@amarone](#): > > Is your English brother also aware that the American gallon is smaller? 30 mpg in America is like 37.5 in England. I don’t think he is, and I’m certainly not. Neato! > [@scr4](#): > > There’s also a cultural/peer pressure in America that says cars must have lots of power. It seems any car that doesn’t do 0-60 in 10 seconds gets reviewed and labeled as underpowered, or even dangerous (e.g. the first reply in this thread). Any car that doesn’t do 0-60 in 10 seconds is slow in Europe, too. It just wouldn’t be called underpowered- that’s the way small cars are. > [@Hockey\_Monkey](#): > > When the safety standards changed so much that the cars were made heavier because of them. Saturn used to make a vehicle called the S-Series. Small and efficient with 5 star crash test ratings for that time. They got around 40mpg easy. The safety standards that were to be implemented for the 2003 model year changed to such a degree that the S-Series was replaced with the ION. They couldn’t bring the S-Series cars up to the new safety standards with what was the design at the time. They had to make a whole new car for the segment. The ION can get up to 34mpg, but it has now been replaced with the ASTRA. > > Times have changed, but you still have lots of vehicle choices that average above 30mpg. You just have to look for them. The Astra, FTR, is a rebadged Opel, which I gather is what most or all Saturns will be from now on (and frankly, it’s a very sensible idea). ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/76 "2008-11-01T00:36:21Z")
> [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](#): > > Just a note, availability isn’t a measure of popularity. Honda Fits and Toyota Priuses were hard to get because they never expected to sell many in the first place, so they never brought over that many on the boat. Honda has sold 73,000 Fits in the US so far, with about 45,000 in 2007. To put that into perspective, Ford sold about that many F-series trucks _per month_ in 2007. Yes, but IIRC, Ford F-series trucks (until the price of gas spiked) outsold _every_ single vehicle. Ford’s _total_ sales don’t match those of other car makers, but if you’re going to do a comparison on a model to model basis, putting the Fit against F-series trucks isn’t really a valid comparison, since no other vehicle has a sales rate on par with the F-series. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/77 "2008-11-01T00:51:56Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > As **Tf** said, it doesn’t work that way. Getting involved in large scale production requires massive investment- when you produce a few sports cars, they don’t have to meet the same type approval standards (crash testing, emissions, etc., not that emissions are an issue). Anyway, if all you’re making is cheap electric cars, what happens if you roll your product out and it flops? You’re out hundreds of millions, and probably billions. Consider this - Honda, GM and Toyota have all been pouring billions into developing viable electric cars, and none of them have cracked it yet. > > Unemployed engineers who don’t know anything about electric drivetrains are not going to be very useful to you. They’re mostly going to be standing around, going “well, if this was an internal combustion engine, we’d do it this way.” Hell, most car companies have to call in third party vendors like Orbital just to help them develop two-stroke _gasoline_ engines. > > I don’t think he is, and I’m certainly not. Neato! > > Any car that doesn’t do 0-60 in 10 seconds is slow in Europe, too. It just wouldn’t be called underpowered- that’s the way small cars are. > > The Astra, FTR, is a rebadged Opel, which I gather is what most or all Saturns will be from now on (and frankly, it’s a very sensible idea). Mass production deals with the assembly and automation. It does not require a working knowledge of the product, just how to repetitively assemble it rapidly and accurately. It is knowledge of welding equipment,conveyors and assembly. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/78 "2008-11-01T00:55:17Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes, but IIRC, Ford F-series trucks (until the price of gas spiked) outsold every single vehicle. Ford’s total sales don’t match those of other car makers, but if you’re going to do a comparison on a model to model basis, putting the Fit against F-series trucks isn’t really a valid comparison, since no other vehicle has a sales rate on par with the F-series. > Reply With Quote I wasn’t trying to do a comparison. I was pointing out that limited availability is due to limited supply, not excessive demand. The Honda Fit is not a “popular” vehicle in North America. Many people who wanted one couldn’t get one right away because not many came over on the boat in the first place. As I have already explained, and Honda understands perfectly well, there is very little demand in absolute terms for these kinds of European/Japanese cars. The Saturn Astra that **RNATB** was talking about, for example, has been a complete sales failure and a costly mistake for GM, surprisingly enough, just like EVERY other popular European car that Detroit has tried to bring over. GM should have known better, as the Japanese car makers generally do, that American consumers say all kinds of bullshit about what they want in a car but will never put their money where their mouth is. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/79 "2008-11-01T01:08:09Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > The S2000 is a nice car, and a blast to drive. I find it hard to believe that the EPA rated it’s MPG so low…they must have really been putting their foot into it! I remember reading a few car magazine reviews of the S2000 that commented on what poor mileage they got. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/80 "2008-11-01T01:17:59Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Yes, but IIRC, Ford F-series trucks (until the price of gas spiked) outsold _every_ single vehicle. Ford’s _total_ sales don’t match those of other car makers, but if you’re going to do a comparison on a model to model basis, putting the Fit against F-series trucks isn’t really a valid comparison, since no other vehicle has a sales rate on par with the F-series. That’s a bit of a misleading statistic, though, since the F-series isn’t really one model, but several. > [@gonzomax](#): > > Mass production deals with the assembly and automation. It does not require a working knowledge of the product, just how to repetitively assemble it rapidly and accurately. It is knowledge of welding equipment,conveyors and assembly. You still have to design your product, though. [QUOTE=TM] The Saturn Astra that RNATB was talking about, for example, has been a complete sales failure and a costly mistake for GM, surprisingly enough, just like EVERY other popular European car that Detroit has tried to bring over. [/QUOTE] That’s not true. Ford’s “world cars” - the Focus and Contour/Mystique/Mondeo did just fine. The Cadillac Catera, which was a rebadged Opel/Vauxhall Omega, did pretty well, IIRC. They don’t bring over very many, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146.md?page=5)