# Sell me a fuel-efficient car, please! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 29, 2008, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146 "2008-10-29T21:14:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/81 "2008-11-01T01:20:53Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Mass production deals with the assembly and automation. It does not require a working knowledge of the product, just how to repetitively assemble it rapidly and accurately. It is knowledge of welding equipment,conveyors and assembly. Yes, but who’s going to design the things? Tesla’s gotten a waver on several safety issues because they’re a **small** company. Were they to go to mass-production, they’d lose those exemptions and would have to put the cars through things like crash tests (which can require several hundred cars). The Tesla also uses a _number_ of expensive materials in its construction, like carbonfibre. Mass production will **not** significantly drive down those costs, on the contrary, they’ll _increase_ them, as carbonfibre companies are having trouble keeping up with the demand they have _now_ asking for them to produce enough carbonfibre to build some 70K+ cars is going to force the price up to the point where it is impractical to produce such vehicles at a profit. Then there’s the issues of the battery packs. The type of batteries used in the Tesla are _more_ expensive than those used in other electric/hybrid vehicles, if they switch to the cheaper batteries, they loose the advantages given to them by the current set. Right there are two very high fixed costs that Tesla can do **nothing** about in the near term. > [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](#): > > I wasn’t trying to do a comparison. I was pointing out that limited availability is due to limited supply, not excessive demand. The Honda Fit is not a “popular” vehicle in North America. Many people who wanted one couldn’t get one right away because not many came over on the boat in the first place. As I have already explained, and Honda understands perfectly well, there is very little demand in absolute terms for these kinds of European/Japanese cars. The Saturn Astra that **RNATB** was talking about, for example, has been a complete sales failure and a costly mistake for GM, surprisingly enough, just like EVERY other popular European car that Detroit has tried to bring over. GM should have known better, as the Japanese car makers generally do, that American consumers say all kinds of bullshit about what they want in a car but will never put their money where their mouth is. Yes, but you’re also over looking the fact that Ford heavily promoted their trucks, at the expense of their other vehicles. Additionally, since they were such high profit vehicles, Ford could afford to cut the price and offer all kinds of incentives to get people to buy them. Nor has every car the US makers imported into the States been a disaster. Ford’s Fiesta sold quite well for a number of years and was built in Mexico. The problem is **not** that people are saying one thing and doing another, the problem is that the US car makers don’t have the flexibility that the Japanese do. Notice that the Japanese didn’t go whole hog into the big truck market like Detroit did. Yes, all of them _offered_ those vehicles after a while, but they never turned their focus over to them to the degree that Detroit did. They also didn’t take those huge profits they made off the vehicles and put them into executive compensation, but put it into R&D. GM owns a number of car companies which produce small cars for foreign markets, yet GM cannot seem to make up its mind if they should bring them here to the States or not. It should be obvious that they need to do this, but the idiots can’t grasp this. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/82 "2008-11-01T01:22:18Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That’s a bit of a misleading statistic, though, since the F-series isn’t really one model, but several. True, but I think that its the F-150 that outsold everything on the planet, however, I’m too lazy to dig the cite on that up, so I was just going with what **Throaty** posted. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/83 "2008-11-01T01:56:54Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > Get a VW with the TDI Diesel engine. Up to 50MPG on diesel, more than makes up for the increased cost of diesel fuel (do the math), and no battery-dependent hybrid systems to worry about. Batteries will go bad at some point and it will be expen$ive. It’s rated at 34 combined or 30 city, 41 hwy. > **[Compare Cars Side-by-Side](https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbsSelect)** > > Side-by-Side comparison of cars and trucks. Compare the gas mileage and greenhouse gas emissions of new and used cars and trucks With the increased cost of diesel, the Fit is a better deal by far. Or several other cars in that class. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/84 "2008-11-01T02:01:52Z")
> [@butler1850](#): > > I’d love to see a return of small, inexpensive cars with few options, that get great gas mileage. ) Fit, Aveo, Accent, and to a lesser extent the Astra, Versa and several others. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/85 "2008-11-01T02:06:33Z")
> [@Hockey\_Monkey](#): > > Saturn used to make a vehicle called the S-Series. Small and efficient with 5 star crash test ratings for that time. They got around 40mpg easy. . My Saturn SC from 2001 got around 30mpg up to 37 on a good day with all HWY. My Ex’s 1995 SL got about the same. Again, these figures from the past are unrealisticly high, I never saw 40 MPG, not ever, and certainly not “easy”. EPA figures are about the same. That being said, I loved my SC2 and hated the ION. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/86 "2008-11-01T02:13:54Z")
> [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](#): > > The Saturn Astra that **RNATB** was talking about, for example, has been a complete sales failure and a costly mistake for GM, surprisingly enough, just like EVERY other popular European car that Detroit has tried to bring over. GM should have known better, as the Japanese car makers generally do, that American consumers say all kinds of bullshit about what they want in a car but will never put their money where their mouth is. I test drove the Astra. Seats were uncomfortable (in the lower end version, the only version they had to test drive), and they weren’t interested in selling me one, I couldn’t get anyone to talk to me. No turbo, no hybrid. Acceleration was barely adequate. I bought a Volvo C30 instead. Note that it is a small Euro car, just the kind you say Americans won’t buy. However, since I had been a loyal Saturn customer for the last two cars, I really \*really _tried to get them to sell me one. They couldn’t be bothered to talk with me about the Astra, and then when the Aura Greenline came out I wanted one- Saturn had (almost) monthly deals_ on every car _but_ the two Greenlines. I gave up. - Usually Low interest finacing, sometiems cahs, sometimes both. ---
**Author:** ![Hockey\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a183cd/32.png) [@Hockey\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hockey_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/87 "2008-11-01T02:31:50Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > My Saturn SC from 2001 got around 30mpg up to 37 on a good day with all HWY. My Ex’s 1995 SL got about the same. Again, these figures from the past are unrealisticly high, I never saw 40 MPG, not ever, and certainly not “easy”. > > EPA figures are about the same. > > That being said, I loved my SC2 and hated the ION. Ah, you had the SC2 with the larger 120hp engine. The SL, SL1, and SC1 had a smaller 100hp engine, that definitely could get 40mpg, especially with a manual transmission. Sorry I didn’t make it clearer in my earlier post…I just used S-Series instead of listing out the difference in models. ---
**Author:** ![Hockey\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a183cd/32.png) [@Hockey\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hockey_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/88 "2008-11-01T02:38:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I test drove the Astra. Seats were uncomfortable (in the lower end version, the only version they had to test drive), and they weren’t interested in selling me one, I couldn’t get anyone to talk to me. No turbo, no hybrid. Acceleration was barely adequate. I bought a Volvo C30 instead. Note that it is a small Euro car, just the kind you say Americans won’t buy. > > However, since I had been a loyal Saturn customer for the last two cars, I really \*really _tried to get them to sell me one. They couldn’t be bothered to talk with me about the Astra, and then when the Aura Greenline came out I wanted one- Saturn had (almost) monthly deals_ on every car _but_ the two Greenlines. I gave up. > > - Usually Low interest finacing, sometiems cahs, sometimes both. I was really excited about the ASTRA, and it is a great little car, but it has been a total sales flop mostly because GM has failed to advertise it or offer ANY incentives on it. Sales have been meager at best. Now the hybrids are a different story. They didn’t make very many of them and the demand was so high that no incentives were offered, and quite frankly I don’t expect any to be offered on them until there is a surplus of inventory on them. Which won’t be any time soon. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/89 "2008-11-01T02:41:00Z")
> [@Hockey\_Monkey](#): > > Ah, you had the SC2 with the larger 120hp engine. The SL, SL1, and SC1 had a smaller 100hp engine, that definitely could get 40mpg, especially with a manual transmission. Sorry I didn’t make it clearer in my earlier post…I just used S-Series instead of listing out the difference in models. I had the Manual, and the EPA rates the two engines only 2 MPG apart. The engines were the same size, just that one was DOHC (the SC2) and the other SOHC. eta- Saturn did have a few incentives for the Astra, but I admit they were few. Once they had Low interest financing for everything BUT the Hybrids. When you said “They didn’t make very many of them and the demand was so high that no incentives were offered,…” you’re right- but \*they made the choice \*to make so damn few! ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/90 "2008-11-01T02:49:03Z")
> [@](#): > > That’s not true. Ford’s “world cars” - the Focus and Contour/Mystique/Mondeo did just fine. The Cadillac Catera, which was a rebadged Opel/Vauxhall Omega, did pretty well, IIRC. They don’t bring over very many, though. I believe out of all of those, only the Focus has done reasonably well. The new North American market Focus is doing very well, but is obviously different from the ROW model. One would suppose that if those other cars had done well, the nameplates would not have been discontinued. > [@](#): > > Notice that the Japanese didn’t go whole hog into the big truck market like Detroit did. Yes, all of them offered those vehicles after a while, but they never turned their focus over to them to the degree that Detroit did. Up until very recently, no car maker in the WORLD makes the kind of big trucks (F150, Silverado, Ram) that Detroit makes. The biggest non-commercial truck type vehicles sold in the rest of the world were the Toyota 4Runner/Hilux and the Nissan Patrol, usually with small turbodiesel engines(compared to the 6+l Duramax or Cummings behemoths that Detroit trucks get), both of which would be considered compact trucks in the US. The Toyota Tundra and Nissan Titan are both made in the US and sold only in the US, as an effort to cash in on the lucrative truck market. Toyota just last year built a huge new facility in Texas to build only Tundras. That plant is now [idle](http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-to-keep-texas-workers-busy-despite-idling-of-truck-plant.html), although no layoffs have occurred yet, as Toyota knows that the UAW will pounce on them if anyone gets laid off. How’s that for your mighty Japanese flexibility? > [@](#): > > I bought a Volvo C30 instead. Note that it is a small Euro car, just the kind you say Americans won’t buy. A quick look at sales figures tells me that the Volvo XC90, a huge gas guzzling SUV, outsells the C30 by almost 3 to 1, and this is VOLVO, so we’re talking about sales of a couple of hundred cars a month. I’m sure Honda sells more FITS in a month than Volvo sells cars in a year. GM also loses money on every Astra they sell, so that would probably explain the lack of incentives. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/91 "2008-11-01T02:57:31Z")
I tell you all two little stories about why I amd skeptical about “my car gets…” stories. 1. My Dad owned a Pontiac, loved that car. Kept detailed milage rating every single fill-up. He always said “It gets around 29-30 on the highway”. After his death I found his little book. Several times the car got 29.xx MPG, but most of the fillups ran 24-26 MPG. 2. I went riding with freind who had a new Prius. She was telling me “it gets 60MPG”. Now,she is rather math challenged and the idea of her figuring out her MPG at fillup time like my Dad did was a little unlikely. So I asked her how she knew, and she pointed out her little MPG gauge, which _is_ a cool tool. She said it had once hit 58 MPG. Ok, that’s close to 60. But right then and there it was showing 37. Now, I know a Prius _can_ hit 60mpg; Mr Roadshow went on a little quest, learned several tricks, and yes, he could- sometimes, under ideal conditions- hit 60MPG. But real life was closer to the high 40’s. The point is- the Pontiac did not really normally get “29-30” and a Prius does not really normally get 60. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/92 "2008-11-01T03:07:05Z")
> [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](#): > > Up until very recently, no car maker in the WORLD makes the kind of big trucks (F150, Silverado, Ram) that Detroit makes. The biggest non-commercial truck type vehicles sold in the rest of the world were the Toyota 4Runner/Hilux and the Nissan Patrol, usually with small turbodiesel engines(compared to the 6+l Duramax or Cummings behemoths that Detroit trucks get), both of which would be considered compact trucks in the US. The Toyota Tundra and Nissan Titan are both made in the US and sold only in the US, as an effort to cash in on the lucrative truck market. Toyota just last year built a huge new facility in Texas to build only Tundras. That plant is now [idle](http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-to-keep-texas-workers-busy-despite-idling-of-truck-plant.html), although no layoffs have occurred yet, as Toyota knows that the UAW will pounce on them if anyone gets laid off. > > How’s that for your mighty Japanese flexibility? Still pretty good. Toyota’s **not** tottering on the edge of bankruptcy like Detroit is, nor does Toyota really have to worry about the UAW getting their mitts on the plant (which, IIRC is being converted to produce other vehicles). Nissan has been doing layoffs here in TN and at their other plants, but they haven’t flipped to union control at any of their plants, even though the UAW’s _trying_ desperately. I seriously doubt that Ford, GM, or Chrysler could afford to still pay their workers at an idle plant. Note also that Toyota (and Nissan and Honda) didn’t get the “bright idea” that they could simply ship their gas guzzlers all over the place, but simply went for the **one** market where they could get the most sales from those vehicles. GM, at least, was trying to sell many of its Cadillac barges in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/93 "2008-11-01T03:23:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Toyota’s not tottering on the edge of bankruptcy like Detroit is, This is basically my point. Detroit is in trouble, but not because their management was somehow less insightful or skilled than their competitors. As noted, the overseas division of Ford and GM are doing quite well. The US operations of ALL the car makers were hit badly by the recent downturn. Detroit is simply being crushed by the additional burden of militant unions, skyrocketing healthcare costs (which their competitors in countries with UHC are shielded from) and the simple geographic fortune of being situated in the US, the most energy dependent economy in the developed world that also happened to be at the centre of the housing and credit bubbles. It’s not as if Toyota somehow made a management decision to not build giant trucks for the US market, they simply lacked the ability and were furiously catching up to Detroit in that market up until very recently. That they were in a better position to weather the current problems was pure luck. > [@](#): > > Note also that Toyota (and Nissan and Honda) didn’t get the “bright idea” that they could simply ship their gas guzzlers all over the place, but simply went for the one market where they could get the most sales from those vehicles. GM, at least, was trying to sell many of its Cadillac barges in Europe. No. As already pointed out repeatedly, both GM and Ford have successful European arms, Chrysler does OK with some niche vehicles like jeep, and the Ford Mondeo was even the most popular foreign car in Japan at one point (from memory, no cite). if they did try to sell caddies in Europe, it would have amount to very little in the big picture. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/94 "2008-11-01T03:31:44Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > _“nor is it conducive to a short on-ramp merge onto an expressway where people are doing 70 mph, either, so in that respect, that IS kinda dangerous.”_ > > Quoting myself…did you just gloss over that part? If you live in America, a certain, reasonable amount of power is generally safer for certain driving conditions. I read it, and disagree with it. In my experience, American drivers aren’t so completely braindead that they’d rear-end a car that just merged in front of them and is taking 15 seconds to get up to 60. > [@](#): > > I understand where you’re coming from…I went from a huge Crown Victoria to a Scion Xa, a TINY car that makes all of 103hp with a 1.3L engine…and gets about 40mpg with a 5-speed. Why don’t you look for a used one of those? It’s very hard to find a good used one. Same with many other fuel-efficient cars that aren’t available in the US anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/95 "2008-11-01T03:45:37Z")
> [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](#): > > This is basically my point. Detroit is in trouble, but not because their management was somehow less insightful or skilled than their competitors. As noted, the overseas division of Ford and GM are doing quite well. The US operations of ALL the car makers were hit badly by the recent downturn. Detroit is simply being crushed by the additional burden of militant unions, skyrocketing healthcare costs (which their competitors in countries with UHC are shielded from) and the simple geographic fortune of being situated in the US, the most energy dependent economy in the developed world that also happened to be at the centre of the housing and credit bubbles. It’s not as if Toyota somehow made a management decision to not build giant trucks for the US market, they simply lacked the ability and were furiously catching up to Detroit in that market up until very recently. That they were in a better position to weather the current problems was pure luck. Bull. Luck has **nothing** to do with it. The Japanese _don’t_ pay their execs hundreds of millions of dollars in compensation, nor do their US operations have the advantage of UHC. Also they _gradually_ eased themselves into the big truck market, and they did so based on dealer/customer feedback. Detroit has the annoying habit of **not** listening to their dealers and simply doing whatever the hell they want. I highly recommend reading the book [_Car Wars_ by Jonathan Mantle](http://www.amazon.com/Car-Wars-Backstabbing-Infighting-Industrial/dp/1559704004/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225510954&sr=1-9) which covers the post-war automotive industry. The differences in business philosophy between American and Japanese car makers is incredibly vast. > [@](#): > > No. As already pointed out repeatedly, both GM and Ford have successful European arms, Chrysler does OK with some niche vehicles like jeep, and the Ford Mondeo was even the most popular foreign car in Japan at one point (from memory, no cite). if they did try to sell caddies in Europe, it would have amount to very little in the big picture. There is no “if” GM _does_ sell Caddies in Europe. Yes, they are a niche market, but so is Saab in the US. Nor are the profits of the European arms enough to keep Ford and GM afloat (Chrysler’s overseas operations are only partly owned by Chrysler, and in some cases the Chrysler vehicles sold in Europe are “Chrysler” in name only, with everything being built by one of the European car companies and the Chrysler nameplate being stuck on them. Chrysler doesn’t even design the vehicles, or have any real connection to them, only getting a fee for the use of the name.), if they were, GM and Ford _wouldn’t_ be on their deathbeds. GM, IIRC, has been living off the profits from its European arm for quite awhile now, and instead of using that money to, well, get their shit together, they’ve been handing out massive compensation bonuses to their executives. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/96 "2008-11-01T03:57:53Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > True, but I think that its the F-150 that outsold everything on the planet, however, I’m too lazy to dig the cite on that up, so I was just going with what **Throaty** posted. The F-150 was the best selling “car” in the US and Canada, but the oft-quoted statistic is that the F-Series was the best selling vehicle in the world, which is true assuming you count the 250/350/450 variants. It’s remarkably impressive no matter how you slice it, especially considering that they aren’t sold outside North America. > [@DrDeth](#): > > However, since I had been a loyal Saturn customer for the last two cars, I really \*really _tried to get them to sell me one. They couldn’t be bothered to talk with me about the Astra, and then when the Aura Greenline came out I wanted one- Saturn had (almost) monthly deals_ on every car _but_ the two Greenlines. I gave up. Well, if it makes you feel any better, it’s not a Saturn; it’s a Vauxhall/Opel with a Saturn badge on it. > [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](#): > > I believe out of all of those, only the Focus has done reasonably well. The new North American market Focus is doing very well, but is obviously different from the ROW model. > > One would suppose that if those other cars had done well, the nameplates would not have been discontinued. Ford discontinues successful badges all the time- they did it with the Escort, the predecessor to the Focus, which was the best selling car in Europe at the time. The Contour/Mystique was discontinued because Ford shifted its own goalposts a bit- they made the next-gen Taurus a bit smaller, and the Focus a bit bigger, so keeping a US Mondeo was a bit pointless. > [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](#): > > No. As already pointed out repeatedly, both GM and Ford have successful European arms, Chrysler does OK with some niche vehicles like jeep, and the Ford Mondeo was even the most popular foreign car in Japan at one point (from memory, no cite). if they did try to sell caddies in Europe, it would have amount to very little in the big picture. Note that GM and Ford have more or less autonomous European arms, though; they’re Europeans designing and building cars for the European market. You’re correct about Cadillac; they did try and sell the old barges in Europe, but they never imported many. I’d guess there are fewer than 1500 RHD Cadillacs in all of Britain. They have brought over a bunch of new models recently - the CTS, for example - and they don’t expect to sell more than a few hundred of each. It hardly seems worth the cost of RHD tooling. > [@](#): > > Nor are the profits of the European arms enough to keep Ford and GM afloat (Chrysler’s overseas operations are only partly owned by Chrysler, and in some cases the Chrysler vehicles sold in Europe are “Chrysler” in name only, with everything being built by one of the European car companies and the Chrysler nameplate being stuck on them. Chrysler doesn’t even design the vehicles, or have any real connection to them, only getting a fee for the use of the name.), if they were, GM and Ford wouldn’t be on their deathbeds. Chrysler’s European operation builds the same models they sell here- the 300C, Caravan, all the Jeep models, and a few others. You may be thinking of GM’s European Chevrolet operation, which sells Daewoos rebadged as Chevys (plus the Corvette). ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/97 "2008-11-01T04:28:07Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Chrysler’s European operation builds the same models they sell here- the 300C, Caravan, all the Jeep models, and a few others. You may be thinking of GM’s European Chevrolet operation, which sells Daewoos rebadged as Chevys (plus the Corvette). Nope. Back when Iacocca took over Chrysler, he had to sell off the European division to help keep the company afloat (I _think_ it was Iacocca, it might have happened just before he took over, however.) and IIRC its in France where you’ll see cars badged Chrysler that have nothing in common with US versions other than they’re called Chrysler. Nor for much of the European operation is there really _any_ corporate connection with the US operation. The bulk of European operations are ran by a company which Chrysler US has only a minority stake in, if that. In checking wiki, [it appears that I was right about Iacocca cutting the European division.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Europe) > [@](#): > > The company’s incoming CEO, Lee Iacocca had shown little interest in the European market from the outset (just as he had done during his period in charge of Ford), and wasted no time in wielding the axe almost immediately. In 1978, Chrysler Europe was sold for a nominal US$1 to Peugeot, who took on the liability for the division’s huge debts as well as its factories and product line, which was rebadged using the resurrected Talbot marque (which was owned in two different forms by both Rootes and Simca). Note that the link doesn’t give the _current_ status of Chrysler Europe, but I don’t think that its really all that different, as IIRC, Mercedes _wasn’t_ interested in buying up the European operations when they bought Chrysler, though they did build a few vehicles in their plants. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/98 "2008-11-01T04:34:48Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Nope. Back when Iacocca took over Chrysler, he had to sell off the European division to help keep the company afloat (I _think_ it was Iacocca, it might have happened just before he took over, however.) and IIRC its in France where you’ll see cars badged Chrysler that have nothing in common with US versions other than they’re called Chrysler. Nor for much of the European operation is there really _any_ corporate connection with the US operation. The bulk of European operations are ran by a company which Chrysler US has only a minority stake in, if that. > > In checking wiki, [it appears that I was right about Iacocca cutting the European division.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Europe)Note that the link doesn’t give the _current_ status of Chrysler Europe, but I don’t think that its really all that different, as IIRC, Mercedes _wasn’t_ interested in buying up the European operations when they bought Chrysler, though they did build a few vehicles in their plants. I didn’t realize you were talking about Talbot and Matra and Sunbeam and all that stuff. They’ve been defunct for ages. They sell regular US-market Chryslers in Europe now. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/99 "2008-11-01T04:46:44Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I didn’t realize you were talking about Talbot and Matra and Sunbeam and all that stuff. They’ve been defunct for ages. They sell regular US-market Chryslers in Europe now. Yes, but it is **not** the Chrysler corporation doing that, its Peugeot. And, IIRC, there are Peugeot built vehicles running around Europe with a Chrysler badge that the US corporation has **nothing** to do with. My point being that Chrysler Europe is **not** in any way comparable to GM or Ford’s European operations. Those are divisions (with a good deal of autonomy, of course), and their cash streams have been what’s kept Ford and GM afloat, while Chrysler doesn’t make any significant earnings from their European sales and Chrysler US could fold completely and the European operations would be **unaffected** by this. Note that the [DeSoto nameplate](http://www.allpar.com/world/turkey.html), despite having been gone from the US for almost 50 years now, is being sold in Turkey. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146/100 "2008-11-01T04:57:32Z")
What Peugeot is sold as a Chrysler? Chrysler sells mostly the same models in the rest of the world, under the Jeep and Chrysler marques (Dodge becomes Chrysler, so the Viper is a Chrysler Viper). Maybe some of the diesel versions use Peugeot technology since PSA Citroen Peugeot is a technology leader in small diesel engines, but lots of companies i.e. BMW also do that. Chrysler had a joint venture plant in Beijing producing Jeep variants for the Chinese until Daimler grabbed it in the merger and converted it to assembling C/E-class Mercedes for the Chinese market. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-a-fuel-efficient-car-please/470146.md?page=6)