# Sell me on why the US should engage in torture. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2005, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655 "2005-10-10T23:36:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2005, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/41 "2005-10-12T19:24:21Z")
To fight terrorists, we have to become terrorists? :eek: I mean, bad enough we’re _already_ terrorizing innocents (with dressed-up terms like “shock and awe,” which is just “spreading terror” in nicer language), but to say “Our enemies are bad, so we must sink to their level” is beyond the pale. ---
**Author:** ![hildea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ebca7d/32.png) [@hildea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hildea)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/42 "2005-10-13T06:18:35Z")
> [@enitocinnlonahte](#): > > Anyone willing to die in order to protect a secret is a potential enemy. Suppose you’re an Iraqi parent. You have a son or daughter who’s 15 years old. You know that prisoners have been tortured and killed in American-run prisons, and have heard that children have been raped in such prisons. (You know that similar or worse happened under the previous regime, so those stories aren’t exactly hard to believe.) The Americans believe that your child has been involved in violent crime, and ask you where your child is. You believe your child to be innocent. Do you: 1. Hand your child over? 2. Send your child in hiding and swear, by all that’s holy, that you’ve no idea where he/she is, and do your damned to keep to that story, if neccessary at the cost of your own life? I hope I would be strong enough to do my duty as a parent and stick to alternative 2. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/43 "2005-10-13T07:38:39Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Wasn’t part of the propaganda used (at least in part) for toppling Saddam, that he was evil for killing and using torture? Don’t you understand? It’s ok when _we_ do it, but the other side are filthy scum when _they_ do it. ---
**Author:** ![enitocinnlonahte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3bc359/32.png) [@enitocinnlonahte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enitocinnlonahte)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/44 "2005-10-13T11:30:36Z")
> [@The Tooth](#): > > That doesn’t really answer my questions or make your first statement any clearer. Torture’s good because those who talk under torture are potential enemies? Torture’s good because those who won’t talk under torture are potential enemies? You’re defining as enemies anyone who won’t do as Beautiful America tells them so as to excuse their being tortured? What? That’s exactly how I am defining it. You can torture them until they are near death and make sure that they are aware of it. At that point, if they are still withholding information, then a decision can be made to a) kill them immediately or b) kill them slowly. Certainly they cannot be allowed to walk the earth freely. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/45 "2005-10-13T11:48:03Z")
**enitocinnlonahte** , the question could not be simpler. What if they are **NOT HOLDING ANY FRIGGING INFORMATION**? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/46 "2005-10-13T12:26:49Z")
> [@enitocinnlonahte](#): > > That’s exactly how I am defining it. You can torture them until they are near death and make sure that they are aware of it. At that point, if they are still withholding information, then a decision can be made to a) kill them immediately or b) kill them slowly. Certainly they cannot be allowed to walk the earth freely. For not doing as the American Government tells them? Appalling. Simply disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![enitocinnlonahte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3bc359/32.png) [@enitocinnlonahte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enitocinnlonahte)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/47 "2005-10-13T12:39:11Z")
> [@hildea](#): > > Suppose you’re an Iraqi parent. You have a son or daughter who’s 15 years old. You know that prisoners have been tortured and killed in American-run prisons, and have heard that children have been raped in such prisons. (You know that similar or worse happened under the previous regime, so those stories aren’t exactly hard to believe.) > The Americans believe that your child has been involved in violent crime, and ask you where your child is. You believe your child to be innocent. Do you: > > 1. Hand your child over? > 2. Send your child in hiding and swear, by all that’s holy, that you’ve no idea where he/she is, and do your damned to keep to that story, if neccessary at the cost of your own life? > [@](#): > > I hope I would be strong enough to do my duty as a parent and stick to alternative 2. You hope so… but _would you_? I do not know that I could. Pain avoidance vs. reproduction… which is the more fundamental instinct? That is what your example boils down to. I think that many parents could resist torture to protect their child. Maybe even a majority. Most people are not zealous enough to resist torture in order to protect whatever organization that exists to promote whatever ideology. Suppose revealing your secrets would save your child’s life… what then? ---
**Author:** ![enitocinnlonahte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3bc359/32.png) [@enitocinnlonahte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enitocinnlonahte)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/48 "2005-10-13T12:47:02Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > **enitocinnlonahte** , the question could not be simpler. > > What if they are **NOT HOLDING ANY FRIGGING INFORMATION**? A smart torturer would determine the truth of the torturee’s confessions. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/49 "2005-10-13T12:52:02Z")
You don’t have smart torturers. You have people who photograph one another committing war crimes. And what happened if the victim lied to make the torture stop, but really knows nothing? Does the torture stop? And since that person knew nothing, was it okay to torture them? Even though he wasn’t witholding information and therefore wasn’t a potential enemy as per spec? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/50 "2005-10-13T12:52:02Z")
> [@enitocinnlonahte](#): > > A smart torturer would determine the truth of the torturee’s confessions. And if _you_ were being tortured for information you didn’t have, would you a) keep silent or b) say any untruth in an attempt to get it to stop? ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/51 "2005-10-13T12:53:45Z")
I take it opposition has abated to my proposition that monsters roam and rule the USA? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/52 "2005-10-13T13:01:23Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > I take it opposition has abated to my proposition that monsters roam and rule the USA? Now that they’ve started posting as guests in this thread we have no choice. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/53 "2005-10-13T13:06:30Z")
Oh it’s a bitter taste, in case you were wondering. ---
**Author:** ![enitocinnlonahte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3bc359/32.png) [@enitocinnlonahte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enitocinnlonahte)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/54 "2005-10-13T13:30:45Z")
A smart torturer would be discriminate in their choice of victims. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/55 "2005-10-13T13:34:35Z")
> [@enitocinnlonahte](#): > > You can torture them until they are near death and make sure that they are aware of it. At that point, if they are still withholding information, then a decision can be made to a) kill them immediately or b) kill them slowly. Certainly they cannot be allowed to walk the earth freely. Amazing transformation happening right before my eyes. Oh how low the mighty and once upon a time righteous US of A has fallen. Will it ever stand for what’s right again? To answer my own query, certainly not down the path it is currently headed… ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/56 "2005-10-13T13:48:37Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Amazing transformation happening right before my eyes. Oh how low the mighty and once upon a time righteous US of A has fallen. > > Will it ever stand for what’s right again? To answer my own query, certainly not down the path it is currently headed… On the plus side 42% of americans according to Zogby poll last week want Bush impeached if (if?) he lied about WMD’s. But like you i’m sickened and disgusted to my stomach by the eagerness of some people here to see people tortured and their complete unwillingness to consider people might be innocent. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/57 "2005-10-13T14:04:16Z")
> [@enitocinnlonahte](#): > > A smart torturer would be discriminate in their choice of victims. A real American wouldn’t torture people. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/58 "2005-10-13T14:17:51Z")
> [@](#): > > A smart torturer would be discriminate in their choice of victims. How does a torturer know who is innocent (and thus _cannot_ give information) and who is so resilient a terrorist that he _does_ not give information, and how could someone so literally impossibly smart find gainful employment only as a _torturer_? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/59 "2005-10-13T15:17:45Z")
> [@enitocinnlonahte](#): > > A smart torturer would be discriminate in their choice of victims. You’ve become your enemy. Period. * * * **tagos** , a day late and a dollar short. Americans were given a choice to do the right thing in Nov of last year – they failed miserably. Whereas in the prior four years many of us on the outside were willing to give them the benefit of the doubt due to the obviously flawed election process – and the undeniable fact that Gore won the popular vote – I have never, in my close to fifty years on this planet, seen such a massive, nearly unanimous and bitter repulse towards the US’s actions. Case in point: took my dog to the Vet (solid, upper middle-class citizen, frequent US visitor as he is a regular on the dog-show circuit) and out of nowhere he went into a _tirade_ against American foreign policy in general and Bush’s actions vis-a-vis Iraq in particular. Mostly, all I had to do was listen and nod my head in approval. Talk to most people around here, lather, rinse, repeat. Again, it’s beyond shocking and Godwin be dammed, but the whole thing has given me a better understanding of what happened in Germany pre-WWII. Yes, there are signs many more Americans are finally stirring and their synapses are firing again – but remember, barring a massive turnaround in the '06 midterm elections, BushCo have three more years of almost unrestricted rule left. Seriously, who knows how much more damage they might manage to do in that time? 'cuase it’s getting close to irreparable as is. Doom and gloom? Afraid so. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/60 "2005-10-13T16:00:29Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > If it didn’t work, I mean really didn’t work, it would not be used. This follows from the well-known fact that no government in human history has ever adopted an ineffective policy. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655.md?page=4)