# Sell me on why the US should engage in torture. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2005, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655 "2005-10-10T23:36:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/81 "2005-10-14T01:22:33Z")
> [@enitocinnlonahte](#): > > Please, enough with the bullshit melodrama. . That’s not melodrama. A country where the president dare to publically announce that he will go out of his way to prevent a bill banning torture is obviously going down the toilets and searching its way out of the list of the places where people are (unconveniently) free. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/82 "2005-10-14T01:32:28Z")
Torture is despicable, disgusting, and sick. It is everything we as a nation are supposed to fight against. There is no way to justify it. It is the lowest level any human can sink to. I will not say what I think of people who support torture at this time - I got my hand slapped last time. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/83 "2005-10-14T01:33:35Z")
> [@enitocinnlonahte](#): > > You’ve mentioned contrary evidence, but I haven’t see any. Your attachment to this belief that torture is ineffective is to me reasoning from a moral standpoint. In my opinion nothing can be totally condemned. It’s not rational to think that torture is never an effective tool. You are choosing to ignore the contrary evidence and you are attempting to shift the focus from your lame arguments by creating a strawman with which to atttack mine. I have actually made no _moral_ argument against torture in this thread; I have pointed out that it is ineffective and I have pointed out that you have made silly claims for how it would be used. Evidence? We have engaged in torture in at least two separate locations since the beginning of the Iraq war. In neither case has the torture resulted in useful intelligence yet in both cases it has encouraged opposition and condemnation. It does not work. ---
**Author:** ![enitocinnlonahte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3bc359/32.png) [@enitocinnlonahte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enitocinnlonahte)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/84 "2005-10-14T01:49:14Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > We’re perfectly aware of your moral convictions. You exposed them for all to see. > The like of you are well remembered by Russian mencheviks, German Jews, Cambodian intellectuals, Chilean leftists, Yugoslavian muslims, Rwandan Tutsis and so on… You’re the guy who proudly shout “present” when a volunteer is asked to shot in the head an “ennemy of the people”. You’re a potential danger for all of us. You’re the guy applauding dictators and congratulating butchers. That’s an interesting characterization. You should be a writer. > [@](#): > > I happen to believe that torture is efficient to gather informations (as opposed to using it to have someone admitting to a crime, in which case it’s of course pointless), but still is morally unnaceptable, even when used on people who are actually guilty of some odious crime (thanks to the numerous “smart torturers” who know immediatly whether or not someone is guilty. These geniuses should work as police officers, judges or prosecutors, IMO). > > And of course, it will be applied too to many innocent people, many people who are vaguely related to someone doing something bad, etc… That’s a perfectly reasonable belief. I agree with it. I just think that the USA is, as a nation, sociopathic. That combined with the human instinct to dehumanize The Enemy makes torture an inevitable consequence of war. > [@](#): > > Let’s see… You’ve just been arrested because, say, you know someone who happens to be involved in a terrorist network (I’m assuming here you’re not one of these smart people who immediatly detect criminals and avoid being involved with them). You’ve been tortured now for, say, a couple weeks. And said nothing useful because you don’t know anything. In particular, you didn’t give the correct answers to the questions the torturer know the answer of (since it’s the method you advocated). > So, could you explain to me exactly what process your smart torturer will use to decide if you’re : > > 1. Actually innocent, so he’ll offer you a beer for the inconvenience and a voucher for medical and psychological follow-up (don’t forget to thank him for his efforts in the fight for freedom and democracy) > > 2. Actually guilty but resisting and granted the priviledge of a quick death > > 3)Actually guilty but resisting and deserving a slow painful death as you proposed. > **[Psychology of torture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology_of_torture)** > > The psychology of torture refers to the psychological processes underlying all aspects of torture including the relationship between the perpetrator and the victim, the immediate and long-term effects, and the political and social institutions that influence its use.\[citation needed\] Torture itself is the use of physical or psychological pain to control the victim or fulfill some needs of the perpetrator. > Research during the past 60 years, starting with the Milgram experiment, suggests that unde... ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/85 "2005-10-14T03:52:37Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > And yet, all your posts have pretended that it is. > > You pretend that torture is effective in producing true information without any evidence that this is so. > You pretend that there are people who have the magical ability to make it work, despite contrary evidence showing where it has failed. > > Despite your claim, you really do believe that torture _is_ magic. To leap to the defense of our new friend **e~** , I don’t read him/her as suggesting torture is effective because it produces reliable information. Rather it is effective as an end in itself. **e~** is to be credited for the candour lacking in other supporters of the Iraqi invasion. Others may have intimated as much, but **e~** has detailed that degradation and depravity are the object and purpose of the US’s actions in Iraq. From heartland USA, comes a body blow to the liberal-democratic faith in progress and civilisation. To the surprise of no-one but the ivory tower left, the majority has stood up and declared ‘This is who we are.’ ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/86 "2005-10-14T04:16:28Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > From heartland USA, comes a body blow to the liberal-democratic faith in progress and civilisation. To the surprise of no-one but the ivory tower left, the majority has stood up and declared ‘This is who we are.’ An amusing analysis, marred only by the fact that I have seen no evidence that **enitocinnlonahte** is from “the American heartland” (or even from America, given his latest posturing regarding the “sociopathic” nature of the country). And, of course, the election, as troubling as it was, had quite as much to do with homosexual marriage, fear of changing leadership in wartime, perceived “character” issues with John Kerry, and a number of other issues as it did with endorsing the specific excesses of the current administration. It _might_ be interesting to discover what **enitocinnlonahte** _really_ believes, but I suspect that it would not. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/87 "2005-10-14T06:33:38Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > A real American wouldn’t torture people. But would a true Scotsman take sugar on his porridge? ---
**Author:** ![kayen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecccb3/32.png) [@kayen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayen)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/88 "2005-10-14T06:57:04Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > YES I AM!!! If we treat the enemy fair, while they saw off our POW’s heads, it would show a certain lack of resolve on our part. They would be launching unrestricted warfair against us and we would basically act as a police force against them. Giving them a great advantage, which is a incentive. No, by not engaging in the same acts of evil you are demonstrating that you are not evil scum like them. Acting as a police force? So should we also be allowing the police to torture people at home? What if the police think they might be somehow involved? Our advantage is that we are supposed to be better than this. You don’t win by becoming what they are. Once you go down the road of torture you’ll have a hard time coming back. More and more things will be considered to justify a ‘little’ torture. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/89 "2005-10-14T07:03:32Z")
> [@enitocinnlonahte](#): > > Please, enough with the bullshit melodrama. You want to believe that torture is ineffective because you are morally opposed to it. Reality does not proceed according to your desire. Feel free to see me as some sort of “bad guy”, but know that you are completely unaware of my moral convictions. I never said torture was ineffective. What I’m saying is that torture’s evil, and those who practice it deserve treatment as criminals. States that routinely practise torture are criminal states, and don’t deserve sovereignty. If you think torture’s fine, and you want your country to practise it, that’s okay; let’s just be clear about it, so I know whose side I want to win the war. ---
**Author:** ![kayen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecccb3/32.png) [@kayen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayen)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/90 "2005-10-14T07:06:11Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > The US supported and trained torturers for the Latin American dictatorships… so it seems to be an old tradition. So much for the un-american argument unfortunately. They gave the South African secret police training in torture too. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/91 "2005-10-14T08:02:12Z")
> [@enitocinnlonahte](#): > > Some knowledge of the victim is necessary. Asking them questions that you already know the answers to is enough to indicate whether or not they are capable of resisting. And, for the umpteenth time, **WHAT ABOUT THE QUESTIONS YOU _DON’T_ KNOW THE ANSWERS TO?** According to your logic, the slightest hesitation in giving a _known_ answer is effectively a death sentence, since you consider it impossible for someone to be **innocent** but not wish to immediately divulge personal information. You are despicable. ---
**Author:** ![enitocinnlonahte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3bc359/32.png) [@enitocinnlonahte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enitocinnlonahte)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/92 "2005-10-14T11:14:37Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I never said torture was ineffective. What I’m saying is that torture’s evil, and those who practice it deserve treatment as criminals. States that routinely practise torture are criminal states, and don’t deserve sovereignty. > > If you think torture’s fine, and you want your country to practise it, that’s okay; let’s just be clear about it, so I know whose side I want to win the war. Well, allow me to address the absurdity of your previous post. > [@](#): > > You understand, don’t you, that if it were to come to pass that people like you were actually running the United States, it would be the moral duty of the rest of the world to wage war against you and destroy your country? You are saying, essentially, that _killing innocent people can be morally justifiable_. So, the moral repugnance of torture is enough to motivate you to _wage a war of aggression_. You are willing to do this to rid of the world of a perceived evil. I would like to know how you reconcile this act of simultaneous advocation and condemnation. I want to know why your type of hypocrisy is morally righteous and mine is not. ---
**Author:** ![enitocinnlonahte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3bc359/32.png) [@enitocinnlonahte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enitocinnlonahte)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/93 "2005-10-14T11:47:35Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > And, for the umpteenth time, **WHAT ABOUT THE QUESTIONS YOU _DON’T_ KNOW THE ANSWERS TO?** According to your logic, the slightest hesitation in giving a _known_ answer is effectively a death sentence, since you consider it impossible for someone to be **innocent** but not wish to immediately divulge personal information. You are despicable. Wrong. According to my logic the victim must be presumed guilty. Regarding my despicability… IMO, that is something you would like to believe because you would like to believe that a torturer is uniquely deranged - a born sadist or a fool that lacks moral depth. If that is the case, then you are mistaken. The fact is that you - the association of neuronal pathways that you call you - are not static. Plenty of righteous human beings have been rendered evil by circumstance. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/94 "2005-10-14T11:54:14Z")
> [@](#): > > According to my logic the victim must be presumed guilty. Which is **the entire problem**! Are you _ill_? Something is interfering with your cognitive faculties. > [@](#): > > Regarding my despicability… IMO, that is something you would like to believe because you would like to believe that a torturer is uniquely deranged - a born sadist or a fool that lacks moral depth. If that is the case, then you are mistaken. The fact is that you - the association of neuronal pathways that you call you - are not static. Plenty of righteous human beings have been rendered evil by circumstance. Well, then you _are_ ill, and your psychopathy is merely saddening rather than despicable (which your _position_ still is). ---
**Author:** ![enitocinnlonahte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3bc359/32.png) [@enitocinnlonahte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enitocinnlonahte)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/95 "2005-10-14T11:56:06Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > To leap to the defense of our new friend **e~** , I don’t read him/her as suggesting torture is effective because it produces reliable information. Rather it is effective as an end in itself. > > **e~** is to be credited for the candour lacking in other supporters of the Iraqi invasion. Others may have intimated as much, but **e~** has detailed that degradation and depravity are the object and purpose of the US’s actions in Iraq. > > From heartland USA, comes a body blow to the liberal-democratic faith in progress and civilisation. To the surprise of no-one but the ivory tower left, the majority has stood up and declared ‘This is who we are.’ Truly, I thank you for your consideration. Sanctimony distorts reality. Absolutely no person on this earth is as good as they would like to be. Those who strive to be good must constantly reimage their idea of what being good is. Unfortunately, “what is good” is a very hard question to answer. ---
**Author:** ![enitocinnlonahte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3bc359/32.png) [@enitocinnlonahte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enitocinnlonahte)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/96 "2005-10-14T12:16:44Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Which is **the entire problem**! Are you _ill_? Something is interfering with your cognitive faculties. Apparently you consider anyone whose ideology is different than your own to be ill. That is a very good reason to rehabilitate them by any means possible, don’t you think? How would you solve the problem of my existence? > [@](#): > > Well, then you _are_ ill, and your psychopathy is merely saddening rather than despicable (which your _position_ still is). Yes, the existence of torture is saddening. I am personally a pacifist… I don’t think that violence can be ever be justified. That doesn’t prevent me from selling you the notion that torture is effective. I am convinced that it is… that conviction is one reason why I believe in pacifism. To me all that you are saying is that one type of violence is better than another. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/97 "2005-10-14T12:30:01Z")
> [@nicotine anagram or whatever](#): > > Apparently you consider anyone whose ideology is different than your own to be ill. No, only those go as far as justifying atrocities like torture to death of those who don’t answer questions. > [@](#): > > That is a very good reason to rehabilitate them by any means possible, don’t you think? How would you solve the problem of my existence? I’m _trying_ to rehabilitate you. Have you considered professional help? > [@](#): > > I am a pacifist … That doesn’t prevent me from selling you the notion that torture is effective. No, you went much, much further than this: > [@](#): > > ecc: Anyone willing to die in order to protect a secret is a potential enemy > **The Tooth** You’re defining as enemies anyone who won’t do as Beautiful America tells them so as to excuse their being tortured? > **ecc** : That’s exactly how I am defining it. You can torture them until they are near death and make sure that they are aware of it. At that point, if they are still withholding information, then a decision can be made to a) kill them immediately or b) kill them slowly. Certainly they cannot be allowed to walk the earth freely. You are undeniably _justifying violence_ there, in a manner which would give me very grave concerns if I heard it from any family or friends around me. I would ask them, as gently as possible, about their mental wellbeing, especially if they subsequently forgot what they had said. Like you. ---
**Author:** ![enitocinnlonahte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3bc359/32.png) [@enitocinnlonahte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enitocinnlonahte)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/98 "2005-10-14T12:42:38Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > An amusing analysis, marred only by the fact that I have seen no evidence that **enitocinnlonahte** is from “the American heartland” (or even from America, given his latest posturing regarding the “sociopathic” nature of the country). And, of course, the election, as troubling as it was, had quite as much to do with homosexual marriage, fear of changing leadership in wartime, perceived “character” issues with John Kerry, and a number of other issues as it did with endorsing the specific excesses of the current administration. > > It _might_ be interesting to discover what **enitocinnlonahte** _really_ believes, but I suspect that it would not. I am from Ohio… “the Heart of it All”… ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/99 "2005-10-14T12:43:48Z")
> [@kayen](#): > > They gave the South African secret police training in torture too. I think we’re talking about the School of the Americas which is located in Ft. Benning Georgia, and is widely hated by many here in America. They claim they no longer offer Torture 101 courses. I wouldn’t be surprised if they don’t do it still under more secretive conditions. ---
**Author:** ![enitocinnlonahte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3bc359/32.png) [@enitocinnlonahte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enitocinnlonahte)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/100 "2005-10-14T13:00:56Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > No, only those go as far as justifying atrocities like torture to death of those who don’t answer questions. I’m _trying_ to rehabilitate you. Have you considered professional help? You really should not waste your energy _trying_ to rehabilitate me. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > No, you went much, much further than this: > You are undeniably _justifying violence_ there, in a manner which would give me very grave concerns if I heard it from any family or friends around me. It is clear to me that violence can be justified. Adherence to a certain idelology is a matter of faith. > [@](#): > > I would ask them, as gently as possible, about their mental wellbeing, especially if they subsequently forgot what they had said. Like you. By “as gently as possible” you mean as patronizing as you can be. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655.md?page=6)