# Sell me on why the US should engage in torture. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2005, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655 "2005-10-10T23:36:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/121 "2005-10-15T14:56:06Z")
> [@enitocinnlonahte](#): > > The short-term is all that is important. Outside of American business and the typical young child, there is no person or group that truly believes that the “short-term is all that is important.” No group, organization, or nation (or the collected individuals that give it will and action) deliberately acts in ways that ignore long term goals. One group or another may act in short-sighted ways for some periods of time, but that is usually in response to unconsidered crises or due to misunderstandings regarding a situation. Whether it is the establishment of particular tax laws, the maintenance of an army in times of peace, or the establishment of rules for the orderly transfer of power, groups _typically_ act with the _intention_ of addressing the long-term. > [@Merijeek](#): > > In what way does what you had to say make us look better? I made no claim that the U.S. looked “better” in any way. I simply noted that a claim that the U.S. deliberately chose to impose monsters on the world is marred by the fact that the decisions, (however bad they may have been), were not simple up and down votes on our invasion of Iraq. They include a great many fear-generated decisions by _sufficient_ numbers of _disparate_ people to attain a majority in a binary election. That a (not very large) majority of those citizens who voted resulted in a bad choice is not quite the same thing as a claim that “the heartland declared” _we support torture_. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/122 "2005-10-15T16:03:27Z")
> [@enitocinnlonahte](#): > > If you could for one moment seperate morality from practicality then you could comprehend that right and wrong are relative. Honestly, I think that you understand that. I do not think that you are willing to accept it. I am going to asume that you consider yourself to be somewhere to the right of center, a right wing sort. Do you realize that you are espousing the same thing that people on the “left side” are usually accused of? Why is this moral relativism OK for you, but not for the majority of us? Why is this argument coming up now? I believe there is a right and a wrong. I may not always know with certainty which is which, but never mind that. If there is no right and wrong, then we can dispense with many laws and prohibitions against certain acts and behaviors. Murder is wrong, but the victim was an asshole - it’s all relative. Aggression is wrong when directed at us, but right when it’s directed at someone else - it’s all relative. Some things are not relative at all. Some things are absolutes. There are people who can separate morality from practicality, and can justify (to themselves) anything they do. The rest of us call them sociopaths and psychopaths. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/123 "2005-10-15T18:19:05Z")
> [@enitocinnlonahte](#): > > I said nothing about the war in Iraq… but, ya know, Saddam tortured people. You may want to refer to the topic of the thread, which is “Sell me on why the US should engage in torture.” Where do you think the U.S. is torturing people? Hint; it’s not Greenland. In any event, yes, Saddam tortured people. I’d be happy to agree that Iraq was a criminal outlaw state. Is the USA, then, to be in the same league as Saddam’s Iraq? They did used to be close buddies. Again, I just wanna know for sure where you want your country to stand on the issues. ---
**Author:** ![enitocinnlonahte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3bc359/32.png) [@enitocinnlonahte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enitocinnlonahte)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/124 "2005-10-16T11:50:39Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Outside of American business and the typical young child, there is no person or group that truly believes that the “short-term is all that is important.” > > No group, organization, or nation (or the collected individuals that give it will and action) deliberately acts in ways that ignore long term goals. One group or another may act in short-sighted ways for some periods of time, but that is usually in response to unconsidered crises or due to misunderstandings regarding a situation. Whether it is the establishment of particular tax laws, the maintenance of an army in times of peace, or the establishment of rules for the orderly transfer of power, groups _typically_ act with the _intention_ of addressing the long-term. Decisions on a national scale are necessarily short-term because the issues are complex. Doing anything is high-risk. ---
**Author:** ![enitocinnlonahte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3bc359/32.png) [@enitocinnlonahte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enitocinnlonahte)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/125 "2005-10-16T12:14:46Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You may want to refer to the topic of the thread, which is “Sell me on why the US should engage in torture.” Where do you think the U.S. is torturing people? Hint; it’s not Greenland. How about Cuba and Afghanistan? We have a hundred military bases spread out over this planet. There are plenty of places where we could be torturing people. > [@](#): > > In any event, yes, Saddam tortured people. I’d be happy to agree that Iraq was a criminal outlaw state. Is the USA, then, to be in the same league as Saddam’s Iraq? They did used to be close buddies. Again, I just wanna know for sure where you want your country to stand on the issues. I don’t expect my country to be anything. It is what it is. What would wanting it be one way instead of another do to change anything? I do not see the USA as being morally superior to other countries. ---
**Author:** ![enitocinnlonahte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3bc359/32.png) [@enitocinnlonahte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enitocinnlonahte)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/126 "2005-10-16T13:01:45Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I am going to asume that you consider yourself to be somewhere to the right of center, a right wing sort. I try not to think about politics. > [@](#): > > Do you realize that you are espousing the same thing that people on the “left side” are usually accused of? Why is this moral relativism OK for you, but not for the majority of us? > > Why is this argument coming up now? I believe there is a right and a wrong. I may not always know with certainty which is which, but never mind that. If there is no right and wrong, then we can dispense with many laws and prohibitions against certain acts and behaviors. Laws and prohibitions are not morality. > [@](#): > > Murder is wrong, but the victim was an asshole - it’s all relative. Aggression is wrong when directed at us, but right when it’s directed at someone else - it’s all relative. Some things are not relative at all. Some things are absolutes. and they would be, ? > [@](#): > > There are people who can separate morality from practicality, and can justify (to themselves) anything they do. The rest of us call them sociopaths and psychopaths. what would a sociopath do? Ask yourself that, then bet on this country doing it. ---
**Author:** ![enitocinnlonahte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3bc359/32.png) [@enitocinnlonahte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enitocinnlonahte)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/127 "2005-10-16T15:43:53Z")
in conclusion… torture should be legalized because it is an inevitable consequence of war. Completely prohibiting it is futile and a strategic disadvantage. The best thing to do is legalize and regulate. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/128 "2005-10-16T17:16:31Z")
The same thing can be said for rape. Is that the subject of your next crusade, “regulating rape in times of war”? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/129 "2005-10-16T18:22:27Z")
> [@enitocinnlonahte](#): > > Decisions on a national scale are necessarily short-term because the issues are complex. Doing anything is high-risk. I deny your unsupported assertion. > [@enitocinnlonahte](#): > > torture should be legalized because it is an inevitable consequence of war. Completely prohibiting it is futile and a strategic disadvantage. The best thing to do is legalize and regulate. Regulate what? You have already posteed several absurd declarations that a “good” torturer would know when his victim should be tortured while also claiming thqat anyone tortured is, byy definition, guilty. If we cannot currently prevenmt torture, a claim that we could regulate it is, on its face, an absurdity. Now, you have spun this thread a long for several days with one-line responses and cryptic comments, molding your responses to the other posts rather than setting forth an actual position, particularly one that actually addresses the OP in terms of “selling” torture. I woulds strongly urge you to put together a comprehensive argument to advance in support of a position, taking care not to contradict your earlier statements, or I am going to begin trusting my feeling that you are only posting to see the reactions to your posts. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/130 "2005-10-16T22:34:04Z")
> [@enitocinnlonahte](#): > > in conclusion… > > torture should be legalized because it is an inevitable consequence of war. Completely prohibiting it is futile and a strategic disadvantage. The best thing to do is legalize and regulate. How about if it caused a war because the administration got what it wanted with torture?: [http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?050214fa\_fact6](http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?050214fa_fact6) > [@](#): > > To Cloonan’s dismay, the C.I.A. reportedly rendered Libi to Egypt. He was seen boarding a plane in Afghanistan, restrained by handcuffs and ankle cuffs, his mouth covered by duct tape. Cloonan, who retired from the F.B.I. in 2002, said, “At least we got information in ways that wouldn’t shock the conscience of the court. And no one will have to seek revenge for what I did.” He added, “We need to show the world that we can lead, and not just by military might.” > > After Libi was taken to Egypt, the F.B.I. lost track of him. Yet he evidently played a crucial background role in Secretary of State Colin Powell’s momentous address to the United Nations Security Council in February, 2003, which argued the case for a preëmptive war against Iraq. In his speech, Powell did not refer to Libi by name, but he announced to the world that “a senior terrorist operative” who “was responsible for one of Al Qaeda’s training camps in Afghanistan” had told U.S. authorities that Saddam Hussein had offered to train two Al Qaeda operatives in the use of “chemical or biological weapons.” > > Last summer, Newsweek reported that Libi, who was eventually transferred from Egypt to Guantánamo Bay, was the source of the incendiary charge cited by Powell, and that he had recanted. By then, the first anniversary of the U.S. invasion of Iraq had passed and the 9/11 Commission had declared that there was no known evidence of a working relationship between Saddam and Al Qaeda. Dan Coleman was disgusted when he heard about Libi’s false confession. “It was ridiculous for interrogators to think Libi would have known anything about Iraq,” he said. “I could have told them that. He ran a training camp. He wouldn’t have had anything to do with Iraq. Administration officials were always pushing us to come up with links, but there weren’t any. The reason they got bad information is that they beat it out of him. You never get good information from someone that way.” ---
**Author:** ![enitocinnlonahte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3bc359/32.png) [@enitocinnlonahte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enitocinnlonahte)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/131 "2005-10-17T11:34:40Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > The same thing can be said for rape. Is that the subject of your next crusade, “regulating rape in times of war”? No, the same thing cannot be said. The problem of rape can be attenuated by giving soldiers a way to satisfy their sexual needs. The military could hire prostitutes if it wanted to reduce the incidence of rape. The difference between rape and torture is that the definition of torture is not nearly as concrete as the definition of rape. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/132 "2005-10-17T12:16:42Z")
> [@enitocinnlonahte](#): > > No, the same thing cannot be said. The problem of rape can be attenuated by giving soldiers a way to satisfy their sexual needs. The military could hire prostitutes if it wanted to reduce the incidence of rape. The difference between rape and torture is that the definition of torture is not nearly as concrete as the definition of rape. Ah, comfort women. The Japanese are way ahead of you on that one. Or rather, were. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/133 "2005-10-17T12:25:32Z")
> [@enitocinnlonahte](#): > > I don’t expect my country to be anything. It is what it is. What would wanting it be one way instead of another do to change anything? I do not see the USA as being morally superior to other countries. Well I don’t think the USA is necessarily morally superior to most countries… but it should be **AT LEAST** at the Western standard of morality. In other words better than Iraq, Saudi Arabia and other US allies. A torture here and there in desperate straits might be warranted if better not regulated… but institutionalized use of torture is quite sad… and something voters can chose to stop. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/134 "2005-10-17T12:43:07Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Well I don’t think the USA is necessarily morally superior to most countries… but it should be **AT LEAST** at the Western standard of morality. In other words better than Iraq, Saudi Arabia and other US allies. A torture here and there in desperate straits might be warranted if better not regulated… but institutionalized use of torture is quite sad… and something voters can chose to stop. Rashak, you are from Brazil, IIRC, where they have quite a history with torture. I remember reading years ago that a Brizilian cardinal who called for an end to torture of ordinary criminals by the police was widely criticized as being, “soft on crime.” Have things changed in Brazil? ---
**Author:** ![enitocinnlonahte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3bc359/32.png) [@enitocinnlonahte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enitocinnlonahte)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/135 "2005-10-17T13:51:54Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Well I don’t think the USA is necessarily morally superior to most countries… but it should be **AT LEAST** at the Western standard of morality. In other words better than Iraq, Saudi Arabia and other US allies. A torture here and there in desperate straits might be warranted if better not regulated… but institutionalized use of torture is quite sad… and something voters can chose to stop. What is the “Western standard of morality”? Institutionalized torture is a reality. I’m sorry of that is a cryptic one-liner. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/136 "2005-10-17T14:30:57Z")
> [@](#): > > What is the “Western standard of morality”? > > Institutionalized torture is a reality. Institutionalized torture is not a reality in Europe and most of the Americas. There are examples of Western nations engaged in clandestine torture, but when discovered, the agencies carrying it out have generally been condemned; often the perpetrators have been tried and punished for their actions. It is true that rogue groups repeatedly resort to that failed practice, but it is not an _institution_ (legally sanctioned, formally organized) in the 21st century Western world. By your weak standard, governments should actively work to support poverty, since it is “institutionalized” in much of the world. ---
**Author:** ![enitocinnlonahte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3bc359/32.png) [@enitocinnlonahte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enitocinnlonahte)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/137 "2005-10-17T14:43:43Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Institutionalized torture is not a reality in Europe and most of the Americas. There are examples of Western nations engaged in clandestine torture, but when discovered, the agencies carrying it out have generally been condemned; often the perpetrators have been tried and punished for their actions. It is true that rogue groups repeatedly resort to that failed practice, but it is not an _institution_ (legally sanctioned, formally organized) in the 21st century Western world. > > By your weak standard, governments should actively work to support poverty, since it is “institutionalized” in much of the world. In what war has the USA not engaged in torture? The West, including the USA, actively works to support poverty. These are not really my standards. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/138 "2005-10-17T14:50:28Z")
> [@enitocinnlonahte](#): > > In what war has the USA not engaged in torture? In what war prior to this one was torture sanctioned by the government, handled as a legal option available to the military, and provided any useful information. If you cannot document your claims, don’t bother to respond. ---
**Author:** ![Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a9a28c/32.png) [@Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oslo_Ostragoth)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/139 "2005-10-17T16:55:58Z")
Would you oppose torture if it would prevent the rape and decapitation of your 10-year-old daughter? Because that’s what these nutjobs would do if given the opportunity… ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655/140 "2005-10-17T16:59:40Z")
> [@Oslo Ostragoth](#): > > Would you oppose torture if it would prevent the rape and decapitation of your 10-year-old daughter? > > Because that’s what these nutjobs would do if given the opportunity… Don’t forget they’d turn her into a newt! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sell-me-on-why-the-us-should-engage-in-torture/325655.md?page=8)