That’s not melodrama. A country where the president dare to publically announce that he will go out of his way to prevent a bill banning torture is obviously going down the toilets and searching its way out of the list of the places where people are (unconveniently) free.
Torture is despicable, disgusting, and sick. It is everything we as a nation are supposed to fight against. There is no way to justify it. It is the lowest level any human can sink to. I will not say what I think of people who support torture at this time - I got my hand slapped last time.
You are choosing to ignore the contrary evidence and you are attempting to shift the focus from your lame arguments by creating a strawman with which to atttack mine. I have actually made no moral argument against torture in this thread; I have pointed out that it is ineffective and I have pointed out that you have made silly claims for how it would be used.
Evidence? We have engaged in torture in at least two separate locations since the beginning of the Iraq war. In neither case has the torture resulted in useful intelligence yet in both cases it has encouraged opposition and condemnation.
That’s an interesting characterization. You should be a writer.
That’s a perfectly reasonable belief. I agree with it. I just think that the USA is, as a nation, sociopathic. That combined with the human instinct to dehumanize The Enemy makes torture an inevitable consequence of war.
To leap to the defense of our new friend e~, I don’t read him/her as suggesting torture is effective because it produces reliable information. Rather it is effective as an end in itself.
e~ is to be credited for the candour lacking in other supporters of the Iraqi invasion. Others may have intimated as much, but e~ has detailed that degradation and depravity are the object and purpose of the US’s actions in Iraq.
From heartland USA, comes a body blow to the liberal-democratic faith in progress and civilisation. To the surprise of no-one but the ivory tower left, the majority has stood up and declared ‘This is who we are.’
An amusing analysis, marred only by the fact that I have seen no evidence that enitocinnlonahte is from “the American heartland” (or even from America, given his latest posturing regarding the “sociopathic” nature of the country). And, of course, the election, as troubling as it was, had quite as much to do with homosexual marriage, fear of changing leadership in wartime, perceived “character” issues with John Kerry, and a number of other issues as it did with endorsing the specific excesses of the current administration.
It might be interesting to discover what enitocinnlonahtereally believes, but I suspect that it would not.
No, by not engaging in the same acts of evil you are demonstrating that you are not evil scum like them.
Acting as a police force? So should we also be allowing the police to torture people at home? What if the police think they might be somehow involved?
Our advantage is that we are supposed to be better than this. You don’t win by becoming what they are. Once you go down the road of torture you’ll have a hard time coming back. More and more things will be considered to justify a ‘little’ torture.
I never said torture was ineffective. What I’m saying is that torture’s evil, and those who practice it deserve treatment as criminals. States that routinely practise torture are criminal states, and don’t deserve sovereignty.
If you think torture’s fine, and you want your country to practise it, that’s okay; let’s just be clear about it, so I know whose side I want to win the war.
And, for the umpteenth time, WHAT ABOUT THE QUESTIONS YOU DON’T KNOW THE ANSWERS TO? According to your logic, the slightest hesitation in giving a known answer is effectively a death sentence, since you consider it impossible for someone to be innocent but not wish to immediately divulge personal information. You are despicable.
Well, allow me to address the absurdity of your previous post.
You are saying, essentially, that killing innocent people can be morally justifiable. So, the moral repugnance of torture is enough to motivate you to wage a war of aggression. You are willing to do this to rid of the world of a perceived evil. I would like to know how you reconcile this act of simultaneous advocation and condemnation. I want to know why your type of hypocrisy is morally righteous and mine is not.
Wrong. According to my logic the victim must be presumed guilty.
Regarding my despicability… IMO, that is something you would like to believe because you would like to believe that a torturer is uniquely deranged - a born sadist or a fool that lacks moral depth. If that is the case, then you are mistaken. The fact is that you - the association of neuronal pathways that you call you - are not static. Plenty of righteous human beings have been rendered evil by circumstance.
Sanctimony distorts reality. Absolutely no person on this earth is as good as they would like to be. Those who strive to be good must constantly reimage their idea of what being good is. Unfortunately, “what is good” is a very hard question to answer.
Apparently you consider anyone whose ideology is different than your own to be ill. That is a very good reason to rehabilitate them by any means possible, don’t you think? How would you solve the problem of my existence?
Yes, the existence of torture is saddening. I am personally a pacifist… I don’t think that violence can be ever be justified. That doesn’t prevent me from selling you the notion that torture is effective. I am convinced that it is… that conviction is one reason why I believe in pacifism. To me all that you are saying is that one type of violence is better than another.
No, only those go as far as justifying atrocities like torture to death of those who don’t answer questions.
I’m trying to rehabilitate you. Have you considered professional help?
No, you went much, much further than this:
You are undeniably justifying violence there, in a manner which would give me very grave concerns if I heard it from any family or friends around me. I would ask them, as gently as possible, about their mental wellbeing, especially if they subsequently forgot what they had said. Like you.
I think we’re talking about the School of the Americas which is located in Ft. Benning Georgia, and is widely hated by many here in America. They claim they no longer offer Torture 101 courses. I wouldn’t be surprised if they don’t do it still under more secretive conditions.