# Selling fake drugs to an undercover cop **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 11, 2002, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selling-fake-drugs-to-an-undercover-cop/123337 "2002-08-11T00:24:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selling-fake-drugs-to-an-undercover-cop/123337/21 "2002-08-12T22:52:11Z")
wooba, I’m certainly no expert in Canadian law, but I am fairly certain your analysis is flawed. Consider a store that has a dish of candy out with a sign that says: “Free - take as many as you like.” Not seeing the sign, I decide to steal the candy. I stealthily slip some into my pocket and hurry out of the store. By your logic, I have committed a crime – I had the mens rea. Yes? - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selling-fake-drugs-to-an-undercover-cop/123337/22 "2002-08-12T23:33:16Z")
**Wooba** , I don’t know which message you’re responding to, but you misunderstood (or it was incorrectly explained). _Mens rea_ lies in possessing the necessary mental state for **that particular crime**. Like most non-violent crimes, selling drugs is a _specific intent_ crime: you must have the intent to do the specific illegal thing described. The example given was a case in which a suspect knowingly sold flour instead of cocaine; so there was no _mens rea_. Let’s say, though, for the sake of argument, that the perp somehow didn’t know; the cocaine bin was next to the flour bin in his kitchen and he goofed. OK, _mens rea_ is present, but there’s still no crime. Why? Selling flour isn’t illegal. Leaving aside those states that condemn this behavior by statute, selling flour as cocaine constitutes a **legal impossibility** ; unlike factual impossibility (receiving stolen property that isn’t really stolen, picking an empty pocket), legal impossiblity is a defense. Even with guilty intent, you can’t be guilty if what you did isn’t a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selling-fake-drugs-to-an-undercover-cop/123337/23 "2002-08-12T23:42:33Z")
**Wooba** , I don’t know which message you’re responding to, but you misunderstood (or it was incorrectly explained). _Mens rea_ lies in possessing the necessary mental state for **that particular crime**. Like most non-violent crimes, selling drugs is a _specific intent_ crime: you must have the intent to do the specific illegal thing described. The example given was a case in which a suspect knowingly sold flour instead of cocaine; so there was no _mens rea_. Let’s say, though, for the sake of argument, that the perp somehow didn’t know; the cocaine bin was next to the flour bin in his kitchen and he goofed. OK, _mens rea_ is present, but there’s still no crime. Why? Selling flour isn’t illegal. Leaving aside those states that condemn this behavior by statute, selling flour as cocaine constitutes a **legal impossibility** ; unlike factual impossibility (receiving stolen property that isn’t really stolen, picking an empty pocket), legal impossiblity is a defense. Even with guilty intent, you can’t be guilty if what you did isn’t a crime. ---
**Author:** ![ElwoodCuse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/edb3f5/32.png) [@ElwoodCuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElwoodCuse)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selling-fake-drugs-to-an-undercover-cop/123337/24 "2002-08-14T19:09:56Z")
Wouldn’t a sale be considered a contract? The government does not enforce illegal contracts. What’s someone gonna do, call the cops and say “I wanted to buy some coke and this dude sold me sugar instead!” ---
**Author:** ![porsche-924](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b487fb/32.png) [@porsche-924](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/porsche-924)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selling-fake-drugs-to-an-undercover-cop/123337/25 "2002-08-14T20:28:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > The ills of drugs that the law seeks to combat are not limited to the damage done to the users’ bodies… legislatures also recognize the general potential for violent crime that follows drug sales areas. Criminalizing fake drug sales makes sense to address those sorts of social ills that happen even with fake drugs. > > - Rick \*\* A little off topic…but wouldn’t the best way to combat these “ills” be to decriminalize drugs alltogether? ---
**Author:** ![I\_Know\_Lots](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@I\_Know\_Lots](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Know_Lots)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selling-fake-drugs-to-an-undercover-cop/123337/26 "2002-08-14T20:39:51Z")
Yes, alcohol and tobacco have long been decriminalized, and statistics show these drugs have never caused any social or medical problems to anyone at all. Let’s legalize everything! ---
**Author:** ![porsche-924](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b487fb/32.png) [@porsche-924](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/porsche-924)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selling-fake-drugs-to-an-undercover-cop/123337/27 "2002-08-14T20:45:57Z")
I Know Lots… I didn’t say drugs were good, or didn’t cause problems but I would trade the current social problems faced by all of society by the illegal drug trade for social and medical problems limited to the individuals who choice to partake. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selling-fake-drugs-to-an-undercover-cop/123337/28 "2002-08-14T20:56:30Z")
porshe, Your question is more in the nature of a debate, and in fact has been addressed many times in GD threads. There is no factual answer to the question you pose. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![I\_Know\_Lots](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@I\_Know\_Lots](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Know_Lots)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selling-fake-drugs-to-an-undercover-cop/123337/29 "2002-08-14T21:16:26Z")
Well, before we get on to a whole different topic, Porsche, let me just say that the problems of legalized drugs are by no means limited to “the individuals who choose to partake.” Think of alcohol-related violence, both domestic and in the streets. Everyday, tobacco-smuggling costs the NHS £9,000,000 in lost revenue. Drunk-driving. Cancer caused by passive smoking. Families destroyed. Kittens burnt alive by madmen. Drugs- legal, illegal and semi-legal- are bad, mm’kay? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/selling-fake-drugs-to-an-undercover-cop/123337.md?page=1)