# Sen. Jon Kyl (R-AZ) lies and admits it **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 12, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106 "2011-04-12T16:36:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/41 "2011-04-12T20:53:53Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > That still counts as winning right? Little known fact: if you abort a warlock, you’ll see it surrounded in a coccoon of tiger’s blood. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/42 "2011-04-12T20:54:58Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Seems kind of like your nitpicking unnecessarily. 90% vs 3% seems like a large difference, but the point he was making was true, Plant Parenthood provides abortions. [Actually, they’re more involved with adoption.](http://plant-parenthood.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/43 "2011-04-12T20:58:55Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > [Actually, they’re more involved with adoption.](http://plant-parenthood.com/) And composting. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/44 "2011-04-12T21:01:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When you claim that that a hyperbole was made, and his office says it was an untruth […] See post #21. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/45 "2011-04-12T21:06:11Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It’s not really 3%. I’ve pointed this out earlier. No, you _said_ that earlier. But with no cite to back up your contention, you’re just talking out of your ass. Hey! You’re just like Senator Kyl! ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/46 "2011-04-12T21:10:48Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > No, you _said_ that earlier. But with no cite to back up your contention, you’re just talking out of your ass. > > Hey! You’re just like Senator Kyl! What to make of this? Not only did I provide a cite in that very post, but I helpfully identified it with the word “source”, for the dimwitted. And yet … Strange. Or maybe not so strange. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/47 "2011-04-12T21:38:50Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > What to make of this? > > Not only did I provide a cite in that very post, but I helpfully identified it with the word “source”, for the dimwitted. And yet … > > Strange. Or maybe not so strange. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Abortions are a pretty expensive service and obviously count for a lot more than 3% of PP’s money spent. I don’t know the actual number. For emphasis: YOU DON"T KNOW THE ACTUAL NUMBER. You just suppose it is “obviously” more than 3%. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/48 "2011-04-12T21:44:21Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > For emphasis: YOU DON"T KNOW THE ACTUAL NUMBER. You just suppose it is “obviously” more than 3%. That’s true. What of it? The notion that it’s more than 3% was not made up by me. It was made by the source that I cited. > [@](#): > > First, we think many people would acknowledge a difference between providing an abortion and, say, handing out a pack of condoms or conducting a blood test. The former is a significant surgical procedure, whereas the latter are quick and inexpensive services. So Planned Parenthood’s use of “services” as its yardstick likely decreases abortion’s prominence compared to what other measurements would show. Using dollars spent or hours devoted to patient care would likely put abortion above 3 percent in the calculations. I myself also thought that “many people” would acknowledge what seems like an obvious fact. But many people is not everyone, and I those who it excludes would include hyped up partisans frothing over the “lies” of their hated political enemies. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/49 "2011-04-12T21:44:27Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Okay, let’s be honest about something for a moment. > > The people who vote for him don’t give a shit that he lied about this, why? Because they are against abortion and he is against abortion, that’s all that matters. To them 3% and 90% are both of the set of numbers n\>0 > > The people who don’t vote for him (and I assume he runs unopposed) don’t care if he lies or not. They support abortion rights so they don’t care if the number is 3% or 90%, all they care about is that again n\>0 (in the sense this time that abortion is allowed to happen not that they want it to). I agree, people who are partisan fucking idiots don’t care if the number is 3% or 90%. So what? It’s still a lie on his part. Even if the number was 50% and he said 90%, I’d consider him to have chosen his figure advisedly in an effort to stir up shit in the hopes no one would call him on it rather than simply being hyperbolic. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/50 "2011-04-12T21:46:34Z")
The “hyperbole” excuse doesn’t pass the smell test, as even Kyl himself appeared to realize, but I’m willing to consider the possibility that he was not deliberately lying when he said what he said. It’s possible he felt compelled to come up with a damning statistic, and in lieu of _actual_ education on the matter, decided to spit out a figure he thought he’d heard on Fox News somewhere. Or perhaps actually _did_ hear. Has anyone heard the 90% statistic come from anywhere but Kyl? Phony statistics tend to be swirled around the right-wing politico-blogo-news-o-sphere like flakes in a snow globe, if they’re useful and sinister-sounding. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/51 "2011-04-12T21:48:48Z")
According to [Media Matters](http://mediamatters.org/research/201102180003), it’s about 15%. That doesn’t speak to the accuracy of Kyl’s statement, but it also doesn’t speak to the accuracy of those who like to use 3% either. [FWIW, the number is an estimate based on the cost of an abortion being $500 - which seems rather low to me. I’m curious about this number. Unfortunately, my office network blocks the apparent source link.] ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/52 "2011-04-12T21:51:33Z")
Seems to me that figure _does_ speak to the accuracy of Kyl’s statement - or rather, the inaccuracy of it. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/53 "2011-04-12T21:52:43Z")
That’s what I meant. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/54 "2011-04-12T22:00:26Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > I agree, people who are partisan fucking idiots don’t care if the number is 3% or 90%. So what? It’s still a lie on his part. Even if the number was 50% and he said 90%, I’d consider him to have chosen his figure advisedly in an effort to stir up shit in the hopes no one would call him on it rather than simply being hyperbolic. No, stop pretending this issue has something to do with lying vs hyperbole. This partisan dip shit wasted time on the senate floor talking about abortion, when he should have been talking about the budget. And as a result, partisan dip shits on this board talk about him as a lying, instead of the fact that he changed the budget debate into an abortion debate. When election time rolls around, some how he’ll be a hero for fighting abortion, instead of a moron that help up the budget. And then this stupid lie will be dragged out, and again all people will here is that PP provides abortions. It doesn’t matter if it’s 3% or 90%. It doesn’t even matter that it’s constitutionally protected, and not funded by federal money. The number could be 99% and it wouldn’t change the underlying problem. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/55 "2011-04-12T22:08:54Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > According to [Media Matters](http://mediamatters.org/research/201102180003), it’s about 15%. That doesn’t speak to the accuracy of Kyl’s statement, but it also doesn’t speak to the accuracy of those who like to use 3% either. > > [FWIW, the number is an estimate based on the cost of an abortion being $500 - which seems rather low to me. I’m curious about this number. Unfortunately, my office network blocks the apparent source link.] According to your own cite, it’s _less than_ 15% of their total _revenue_, not 15% of their services. Again, according to your own link, abortion is 3% of their services. > [@](#): > > Abortion accounted for 3 percent of total services (approximately 328,308 of 10,943,609 services) ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/56 "2011-04-12T22:08:55Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Source: [PolitiFact | Jon Kyl says abortion services are “well over 90 percent of what Planned Parenthood does”](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/apr/08/jon-kyl/jon-kyl-says-abortion-services-are-well-over-90-pe/) > > FWIW, IMO Kyl is not a liar, and he did mean it as a hyperbolic statement. He probably assumed the number was somewhere up there and said well over 90% as a hyperbole. He shouldn’t have done it. But that doesn’t mean he’s a liar. Can’t agree with your assessment that the remark was hyperbole. Here’s the quote from your source: [INDENT]Here’s a portion of what Kyl said on the floor: “Everybody goes to clinics, to hospitals, to doctors, and so on. Some people go to Planned Parenthood. But you don’t have to go to Planned Parenthood to get your cholesterol or your blood pressure checked. If you want an abortion, you go to Planned Parenthood, and that’s well over 90 percent of what Planned Parenthood does.”[/INDENT] Hyperbole is exaggeration that most people understand is not be taken literally. If Kyl had merely said that 90% of what PP did was abortion, there would be a possible (but very weak) argument that he was using hyperbole. But what he said was “that’s well over 90 percent of what Planned Parenthood does.” The “well over” is adding detail to sound convincing. It isn’t an obvious exaggeration for effect, such as “99%” would be. And it isn’t a casually thrown out rough figure like 90% could be. An average, semi-informed, listener would not regard his remark as a clear exaggeration. The remark is meant to sound convincing. That was the point of saying “well over”. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/57 "2011-04-12T22:11:59Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > What to make of this? > > Not only did I provide a cite in that very post, but I helpfully identified it with the word “source”, for the dimwitted. And yet … > > Strange. Or maybe not so strange. Your source doesn’t back you up, is the point. In fact, in your source it clearly states that abortions make up 3% of the services PP provides. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/58 "2011-04-12T22:21:13Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > No, stop pretending this issue has something to do with lying vs hyperbole. > > This partisan dip shit wasted time on the senate floor talking about abortion, when he should have been talking about the budget. > > And as a result, partisan dip shits on this board talk about him as a lying, instead of the fact that he changed the budget debate into an abortion debate. > > When election time rolls around, some how he’ll be a hero for fighting abortion, instead of a moron that help up the budget. > > And then this stupid lie will be dragged out, and again all people will here is that PP provides abortions. It doesn’t matter if it’s 3% or 90%. It doesn’t even matter that it’s constitutionally protected, and not funded by federal money. The number could be 99% and it wouldn’t change the underlying problem. Well, FTR, I’ll consider him an asshole for both reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/59 "2011-04-12T22:21:40Z")
This stupid old fuck can’t retire soon enough. He epitomizes the worst in the political system. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/60 "2011-04-12T22:30:53Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > Hyperbole is exaggeration that most people understand is not be taken literally. If Kyl had merely said that 90% of what PP did was abortion, there would be a possible (but very weak) argument that he was using hyperbole. > > But what he said was “that’s well over 90 percent of what Planned Parenthood does.” The “well over” is adding detail to sound convincing. It isn’t an obvious exaggeration for effect, such as “99%” would be. And it isn’t a casually thrown out rough figure like 90% could be. > > An average, semi-informed, listener would not regard his remark as a clear exaggeration. The remark is meant to sound convincing. That was the point of saying “well over”. That’s all valid. I’ve said similar, in post #37. Your point about “well over” is also valid. But I can see where someone might look at things differently. Especially since politicians give themselves wider latitude in their use of hyperbole than most people. That’s part of politics. In any event, there’s no doubt that when Kyl later said “not meant to be factual” he meant he was being hyperbolic. Could be he was lying about _that_. But I incline to think he wasn’t. I think he just assumed (incorrectly) that most of what they do is abortions, and just tossed out 90% as a number. YMMV. **Snowboarder Bo** , I can’t tell whether you’re being deliberately obtuse, or if you just are obtuse. Either way, I don’t think I need respond further. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106.md?page=4)