# Sen. Jon Kyl (R-AZ) lies and admits it **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 12, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106 "2011-04-12T16:36:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/101 "2011-04-13T20:09:06Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Kyl makes an inacurate statement based on an incorrect assumption, and you’re up in arms. You guys repeatedly make false statements, with the evidence staring you in the face. And you’re complaining about him. > > Acid is groovy, kill the pigs. Inaccurate? Jesus Fucking Christ. He lied. According to his office it was not intended to be factual. How can such a statement be evaluated on the basis of it’s accuracy? He wasn’t aiming for the truth, so his accuracy or lack thereof is moot. If I let loose an arrow, on what basis can you determine how accurate my shot was if you don’t know what the target was? And even granting your unsubstantiated assertions of false statements, do you really see an equivalence between what is said here and what is stated on the Senate floor? Please. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/102 "2011-04-13T20:11:29Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Iyour unsubstantiated assertions of false statements Unsubstantiated? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/103 "2011-04-13T20:13:31Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > When election time rolls around, some how he’ll be a hero for fighting abortion, instead of a moron that help up the budget For what it’s worth, to me he will always be a fucking moron and a dipshit, even long after I’ve forgotten why. I’ll just know he’s shit. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/104 "2011-04-13T20:14:33Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > Can’t agree with your assessment that the remark was hyperbole. > > Here’s the quote from your source: > [INDENT]Here’s a portion of what Kyl said on the floor: > > “Everybody goes to clinics, to hospitals, to doctors, and so on. Some people go to Planned Parenthood. But you don’t have to go to Planned Parenthood to get your cholesterol or your blood pressure checked. If you want an abortion, you go to Planned Parenthood, and that’s well over 90 percent of what Planned Parenthood does.”[/INDENT] > > Hyperbole is exaggeration that most people understand is not be taken literally. If Kyl had merely said that 90% of what PP did was abortion, there would be a possible (but very weak) argument that he was using hyperbole. > > But what he said was “that’s well over 90 percent of what Planned Parenthood does.” The “well over” is adding detail to sound convincing. It isn’t an obvious exaggeration for effect, such as “99%” would be. And it isn’t a casually thrown out rough figure like 90% could be. > > An average, semi-informed, listener would not regard his remark as a clear exaggeration. The remark is meant to sound convincing. That was the point of saying “well over”. In other words, he fucking lied. Deliberately. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/105 "2011-04-13T20:15:46Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Unsubstantiated? Not intended to be factual? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/106 "2011-04-13T20:20:30Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > This stupid old fuck can’t retire soon enough. He epitomizes the worst in the political system. Well, him and the assholes who vote for him 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/107 "2011-04-14T00:10:21Z")
I live in Arizona and here is how it is being spun by the local conservatives. "Here are the real FACTS from Planned Parenhood’s own 2009 report, the most recent report available. Of the 340,276 pregnant women who entered PP “clinics” in 2009, 7,021 were offered prenatal care and 977 were referred for adoptions, for a total of 2.4% of clients. 332,278 clients (97.6%) exercised their right to choose to pay someone to kill their preborn child for them. Kyl erred and should have used the 97.6% figure; his 90% figure was too conservative." So in this way, according to the conservatives, Kyl was actually RIGHT! ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/108 "2011-04-14T02:30:17Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > In other words, he fucking lied. Deliberately. Do you always equate the use of hyperbole with lying? ---
**Author:** ![SSgtBaloo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac91a4/32.png) [@SSgtBaloo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SSgtBaloo)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/109 "2011-04-14T02:37:29Z")
It’s things like the OP that finally led me to register as an independent. The best way to deal with politics is not to trust the politicians. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/110 "2011-04-14T02:37:47Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Do you always equate the use of hyperbole with lying? Of course not. However, what he did does not qualify as hyperbole. Hyperbole is an obvious and intentional exaggeration. Here’s what I said in another thread: Clear hyperbole involves the impossible: “Planned Parenthood does billions more abortions than everyone else combined” would be clear hyperbole. “Planned Parenthood has a million different ways to juggle their financing to fund abortions with federal dollars” would be hyperbole. But what he said wasn’t clear hyperbole: it took the form of a statistic that would be thoroughly plausible to people who are unfamiliar with Planned Parenthood’s operations. What’s more, if he’d used the factual statistic, his statement would be thoroughly underwhelming, almost an argument for his opposition. His rhetorical punch depended on the false claim. I stand by that. If his claim had been accurate, it would have sounded like this: > [@Not Kyl](#): > > Everybody goes to clinics, to hospitals, to doctors, and so on. Some people go to Planned Parenthood. But you don’t have to go to Planned Parenthood to get your cholesterol or your blood pressure checked. If you want an abortion, you go to Planned Parenthood, and about 3 percent of what Planned Parenthood does. Note the total lack of rhetorical punch. Furthermore, note **Palo Verde’s** post: at least some conservatives believe he was being accurate. It fails on the “obvious” part of the exaggeration. In general, if you use remotely plausible numbers in your statement (as in, it’s plausible for folks who don’t know PP that they might be almost exclusively an abortion provider), I won’t cut you slack as hyperbole. If your numbers are completely implausible, you’re a lot likelier to get characterized as hyperbole. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/111 "2011-04-14T02:42:13Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Do you always equate the use of hyperbole with lying? Not at all, but I know the difference between the two. If I say “shit this crap makes my head explode” that is hyperbole. If I make a false statement to deliberately misrepresent something and mislead people, complete with fake statistics then that is a lie. Do YOU know the fucking difference? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/112 "2011-04-14T02:45:06Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Do you always equate the use of hyperbole with lying? So quoting bogus statistics on the floor of the Senate is now excusable by calling it hyperbole? Are Republicans going to start telling us which statements are intended as fact and which are not, or are we supposed to just make our best guess? Even you must be embarassed by this, right? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/113 "2011-04-14T02:49:05Z")
Assume they’re lying. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/114 "2011-04-14T03:13:19Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Because in spite of the whole “The Republican Party: now with 90% more fiscal responsibility!” makeover, their real focus remains on the same old stuff: eliminating abortion I don’t think they want to eliminate abortion. They just want to eliminate abortion _by the poor_. The rich will go back to the practice of sending their daughters “to Europe for a few months” and will mysteriously not be plagued by unwanted babies messing up inheritances. I’m serious – back when abortion was illegal, rich people mostly just sent their daughters away to where it was legal. Since they’ll still be able to do that after outlawing public support for abortions, and then all abortions, here in the US, they’re not worried about the consequences, which won’t fall on them. If they were _really_ serious about protecting unborn babies, they’d already have proposed a system of mandatory sonograms and hormone tests on rich girls. Ask them if they’d support that, and if the answer is anything but, “hey, let’s draft a bill,” then protecting the unborn babies isn’t really the thrust of their effort. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/115 "2011-04-14T05:51:13Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Not at all, but I know the difference between the two. If I say “shit this crap makes my head explode” that is hyperbole. If I make a false statement to deliberately misrepresent something and mislead people, complete with fake statistics then that is a lie. Do YOU know the fucking difference? I posted the question to you because in the post I was responding to you seemed to grant that it was hyperbole. If I didn’t get that impression from your post I wouldn’t have asked you the question. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/116 "2011-04-14T06:20:43Z")
No-one who quotes an actual statistic is indulging in hyperbole. Saying “most PP clients end up having abortions” may be excused as hyperbole, despite being factually inaccurate. “A lot of …” even more so. "Many of … " certainly. But in what world is saying “over 90%”, when the truth is single digits, excusable as exaggeration for rhetorical effect? It is either lying or wilful ignorance, there is simply no other way to honestly characterise it. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/117 "2011-04-14T06:57:05Z")
John Kyl has Fotheringay-Phipps mother’s face tattooed on 90% of the head of his penis. (Not intended to be a factual statement.) That makes it ok, right? ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/118 "2011-04-14T08:12:04Z")
> [@Palo\_Verde](#): > > I live in Arizona and here is how it is being spun by the local conservatives. > > "Here are the real FACTS from Planned Parenhood’s own 2009 report, the most recent report available. > > Of the 340,276 pregnant women who entered PP “clinics” in 2009, 7,021 were offered prenatal care and 977 were referred for adoptions, for a total of 2.4% of clients. > > 332,278 clients (97.6%) exercised their right to choose to pay someone to kill their preborn child for them. Kyl erred and should have used the 97.6% figure; his 90% figure was too conservative." > So in this way, according to the conservatives, Kyl was actually RIGHT! I’ve reaad this six times and I still don’t get it. Are they spinning that PP provided 332,278 abortion referrals, or just trying to say that PP gave out over 300,000 condoms? ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/119 "2011-04-14T08:18:47Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > It was just one time, and he’s no doubt said at least something that was true, but they’re happy because this confirmed their pre-set bias. Well I just raped my daughter that one time, and most of the time I only sleep with 18 year olds… SO I’m not a pedophile molester right? ---
**Author:** ![nani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58956e/32.png) [@nani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nani)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/120 "2011-04-14T09:22:42Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > I’ve reaad this six times and I still don’t get it. Are they spinning that PP provided 332,278 abortion referrals, or just trying to say that PP gave out over 300,000 condoms? I had to read this a few times too. I think they are assuming that the women who were offered prenatal care (7021) were the only ones who ended up keeping their babies, and that every other women (340,276 - 7021) sought out an abortion, either from Planned Parenthood or from someone else. There still seems to be a few things wrong with that outlook, however. I wonder if it is intended to be a factual statement. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106.md?page=7)