# Sen. Jon Kyl (R-AZ) lies and admits it **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 12, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106 "2011-04-12T16:36:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/161 "2011-04-15T21:53:06Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > One reason I wonder about it is because I know someone who recently had a D&C after a “spontaneous abortion” (aka a miscarriage) and the bills for doctor, anesthesia, and facilities etc. ran to thousands of dollars. And in general, medical procedures on a scale like an abortion don’t tend to cost anywhere near as low as $500. D&C is more of a second trimester sort of thing. Most abortions don’t require D&C and is much cheaper. The $500 cost to the recipient is subsidized, it costs PP more to perform an abortion. > [@](#): > > He was saying their primary function is abortions. The hyperbole was in jacking it up to “well over 90%”. By no measure does abortion account for more than half of what PP does. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/162 "2011-04-15T21:56:25Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Considering that Planned Parenthood itself is quoted as saying that 3% of donation-derived expenditures go for abortions, and that you are working from your own estimate here, I am more inclined to believe them over you. Though I appreciate your efforts toward trying to substantiate your point with actual figures. You have a cite for the 3% of expenditures figure? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/163 "2011-04-15T22:01:12Z")
> [@Palo\_Verde](#): > > I live in Arizona and here is how it is being spun by the local conservatives. > > "Here are the real FACTS from Planned Parenhood’s own 2009 report, the most recent report available. > > Of the 340,276 pregnant women who entered PP “clinics” in 2009, 7,021 were offered prenatal care and 977 were referred for adoptions, for a total of 2.4% of clients. > > 332,278 clients (97.6%) exercised their right to choose to pay someone to kill their preborn child for them. Kyl erred and should have used the 97.6% figure; his 90% figure was too conservative." > So in this way, according to the conservatives, Kyl was actually RIGHT! What about all that “not intended to be a factual statement stuff”? I mean even in the most charitable light, it represents a complete disregard for the truth. A statement that he jsut made up the number with complete disregard for what the number actually was. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/164 "2011-04-15T22:02:19Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Do you always equate the use of hyperbole with lying? He knew or should have known the number was lower… a lot lower. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/165 "2011-04-15T22:03:16Z")
Dems got played hard on this one. Why haggle over the percentage of baby killing in a desperate attempt to minimize it? That’s the entire point. The only winning move is not to play. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/166 "2011-04-15T23:19:14Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > He knew or should have known the number was lower… a lot lower. Well, if you’re going for King Ignoramous of the SDMB, I guess this is a good addition to your ignorance that you advertised in that other thread, you dumb bastard. “Why is that?”, you might ask? Well, son, it’s because most people kinda understand that when someone is using hyperbole that they know full well that THEY ARE EMPLOYING A RHETORICAL DEVICE THAT USES…(wait for it)…EXAGGERATION. Don’t mention it. Glad to help. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/167 "2011-04-15T23:34:53Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Well, son, it’s because most people kinda understand that when someone is using hyperbole that they know full well that THEY ARE EMPLOYING A RHETORICAL DEVICE THAT USES…(wait for it)…EXAGGERATION. 1. **obvious** and intentional exaggeration. Not just obvious to the teller of the tale. Obvious to his audience. What is obvious to me is that Kyl just made shit up to further his agenda. He lied. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/168 "2011-04-15T23:37:26Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Well, if you’re going for King Ignoramous of the SDMB, I guess this is a good addition to your ignorance that you advertised in that other thread, you dumb bastard. “Why is that?”, you might ask? Well, son, it’s because most people kinda understand that when someone is using hyperbole that they know full well that THEY ARE EMPLOYING A RHETORICAL DEVICE THAT USES…(wait for it)…EXAGGERATION. _Pffft._ If he’s going for King Ignoramus of the SDMB, you’re going to have to step aside. You’re blocking the way to the third in line of succession. ---
**Author:** ![Cyberhwk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Cyberhwk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyberhwk)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/169 "2011-04-15T23:52:22Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Dems got played hard on this one. Why haggle over the percentage of baby killing in a desperate attempt to minimize it? That’s the entire point. The only winning move is not to play. Really? Seems to me every single news story that mentions it is going to have to specifically lay out exactly what Planned Parenthood does and how little of it’s business is actually related to Abortion to prove it was a lie. Kyl looks bad and it’s great PR for the great work that PP does do. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/170 "2011-04-16T00:07:53Z")
> [@Cyberhwk](#): > > [sub]Really? Seems to me every single news story that mentions it is going to have to specifically lay out exactly what [/sub] **Planned Parenthood** [sub] does and how little of it’s business [/sub]\*\*is \*\*[sub] actually related to [/sub]\*\*Abortion \*\*[sub]to prove it was a lie. Kyl looks bad and it’s great PR for the great work that PP does do.[/sub] How Republicans see those articles. Doesn’t matter if it’s 99% or 0.01%, all that matters is the _potential_ for it to be \>0%. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/171 "2011-04-16T01:30:21Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Well, if you’re going for King Ignoramous of the SDMB, I guess this is a good addition to your ignorance that you advertised in that other thread, you dumb bastard. “Why is that?”, you might ask? Well, son, it’s because most people kinda understand that when someone is using hyperbole that they know full well that THEY ARE EMPLOYING A RHETORICAL DEVICE THAT USES…(wait for it)…EXAGGERATION. > > Don’t mention it. Glad to help. Dude, there’s exaggeration, and then there’s plain bullshit. If you go fishing and catch a 2 feet trout, run back and tell the boys you just caught this HUGE, like, at least 3 footer fish, that’s hyperbole. If you tell them you caught a freshwater whale, that’s bullshit. I’d say Kyl’s statement is a prime example of bullshit, in the Harry Frankfurt sense of the word. It’s not that he knew the true number and exaggerated it for effect. It’s not even that he knew the real number and was trying to lie about it. He just did not give a shit. He spun it out of whole cloth. Pulled it right out of his arse. This is not something that should be defended or excused, especially in a politician. Yes, honey, even if he’s on your self-identified side of the line. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/172 "2011-04-16T01:37:13Z")
The thing that frustrates me is the obesseion that conservatives like **magellan01** have for defending their standard bearers, even when they have been plainly caught with their pants down. They will go to ridiculous extremes to explain away pathetic gaffes, and are incapable of admitting any shortcoming whatsoever. Have you no shame, sir? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/173 "2011-04-16T02:19:48Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Well, if you’re going for King Ignoramous of the SDMB, I guess this is a good addition to your ignorance that you advertised in that other thread, you dumb bastard. “Why is that?”, you might ask? Well, son, it’s because most people kinda understand that when someone is using hyperbole that they know full well that THEY ARE EMPLOYING A RHETORICAL DEVICE THAT USES…(wait for it)…EXAGGERATION. > > Don’t mention it. Glad to help. 90 percent is measurable. It is not vague. When the percent is actually under 3 percent, it is not some small example of misspeaking. It is not a mathematical miscalculation. It is a falsehood. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/174 "2011-04-16T02:32:57Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > 90 percent is measurable. It is not vague. When the percent is **actually under 3 percent** , it is not some small example of misspeaking. It is not a mathematical miscalculation. It is a falsehood. Do we know what the real percentage is now? What gets me about all this is how in a thread complaining about Republican lies we have a million liberals doing the same thing. Is the real number so hard to use? Is it not a lie if the real number is closer to 80%? The point is it’s not 90%, end of story. See, now that was some good hyperbole. ---
**Author:** ![Cyberhwk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Cyberhwk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyberhwk)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/175 "2011-04-16T03:17:44Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > How Republicans see those articles. Doesn’t matter if it’s 99% or 0.01%, all that matters is the _potential_ for it to be \>0%. I don’t care how Republicans see it. I care how reasonable moderates who were unaware of how much of PP’s business is basic health care instead of abortion procedures see it. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/176 "2011-04-16T04:48:03Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Well, if you’re going for King Ignoramous of the SDMB, I guess this is a good addition to your ignorance that you advertised in that other thread, you dumb bastard. “Why is that?”, you might ask? Well, son, it’s because most people kinda understand that when someone is using hyperbole that they know full well that THEY ARE EMPLOYING A RHETORICAL DEVICE THAT USES…(wait for it)…EXAGGERATION. > > Don’t mention it. Glad to help. You’re an idiot with no credibility anywhere except in your own mind. Go away. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/177 "2011-04-16T04:51:13Z")
> [@Cyberhwk](#): > > I don’t care how Republicans see it. I care how reasonable moderates who were unaware of how much of PP’s business is basic health care instead of abortion procedures see it. Reasonable moderates? Does such a thing exist? \*Can \*such a thing exist in an abortion debate? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/178 "2011-04-16T04:53:33Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Do we know what the real percentage is now? > > What gets me about all this is how in a thread complaining about Republican lies we have a million liberals doing the same thing. Is the real number so hard to use? Is it not a lie if the real number is closer to 80%? The point is it’s not 90%, end of story. > > See, now that was some good hyperbole. 3% has a basis in truth. 3% of the services it provided were abortions but they are putting abortions on par with dispensing birth control pills for a month. If you do it by money received for abortion services it 15% as a percentage of all money received. If you do it by percentage of income received by their clinics, its closer to 40% but its pretty hard to justify ignoring 2/3 of all revenue when most of that other 2/3 is specifically earmarked for things other than abortion. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/179 "2011-04-17T02:14:35Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You’re an idiot with no credibility anywhere except in your own mind. Go away. But who will then teach you? I’m not surprised that you don’t even know WHAT I was arguing in that post to you. So, let the instruction continue. First, let’s recap. Here’s your what I said earlier and your response: [QUOTE=Damuri Ajashi] [QUOTE=magellan01] Do you always equate the use of hyperbole with lying? [/QUOTE] He knew or should have known the number was lower… a lot lower. [/QUOTE] And my subsequent response: [QUOTE=magellan01] Well, if you’re going for King Ignoramous of the SDMB, I guess this is a good addition to your ignorance that you advertised in that other thread, you dumb bastard. “Why is that?”, you might ask? Well, son, it’s because most people kinda understand that when someone is using hyperbole that they know full well that THEY ARE EMPLOYING A RHETORICAL DEVICE THAT USES…(wait for it)…EXAGGERATION. [/QUOTE] The point is that if, in fact, Kyle was using hyperbole, he would have, _by definition_, known that the number was lower. So you offering up the observation that “he should have know the number was lower”, in no way negates the claim that he was using hyperbole (whether he was or not). THAT was the point of my response. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106/180 "2011-04-17T02:39:36Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > The thing that frustrates me is the obesseion that conservatives like **magellan01** have for defending their standard bearers, even when they have been plainly caught with their pants down. They will go to ridiculous extremes to explain away pathetic gaffes, and are incapable of admitting any shortcoming whatsoever. > > Have you no shame, sir? Slow down, tiger. Until now I have not weighed in on whether what Kyle said was actually hyperbole or not. My comments have had to do with the logic being applied by a few posters, starting with **SteveG** (which I already explained) and ending with that dumb, ignorant, dishonest bastard, **Damuri Ajashi,** who ignored said explanation. As far as what I actually think Kyle did, there are four possibilities: 1. Kyle knew the correct stat and was using hyperbole 2. Kyle knew the correct stat and was lying 3. Kyle knew the correct stat and misspoke 4. Kyle though he had the stat right, as that what was given to him by his staff 1: While jumping from some tiny percent to “90” might be used in hyperbole, I don’t think his delivery jibes with the claim that he was employing hyperbole. 2: This seems to be grossly unlikely. I can’t imagine and U.S. Senator being so stupid as to so overtly lie, especially about something that is so easily checked. And if he in fact lied, that means he knew the correct number. And I can’t see how someone in the Senate would try to pull off such a flagrant lie and not expect it to not blow up in his face. 3: Again, given the delivery, this seems unlikely. But a more realistic explanation than 1 or 2. 4: This actually seems the most likely to me. again, going by his delivery. Now, there might very well be another explanation I’ve missed. But barring that, I’d have to go with the least bad answer and go with #4. And just a point of interest: I’m Pro-Choice and Pro Planned Parenthood. A search of my posts will reveal that to be the case, but hey, knock yourselves out. another observation, I think LHOD’s explanation (post 110) of what hyperbole is and why Kyle’s statement doesn’t seem to qualify was spot on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-jon-kyl-r-az-lies-and-admits-it/578106.md?page=10)