# Sen. Kennedy on the Watch List **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 20, 2004, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-kennedy-on-the-watch-list/260720 "2004-08-20T14:50:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-kennedy-on-the-watch-list/260720/101 "2004-08-21T22:07:30Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Hey, if it took seventy years for big government to bite us on the ass, maybe there’s something more to the idea of big government than you think. How many failed political philosophies take seven decades to backfire on the people who put them into place? That’s some pretty solid governing, if you ask me. I dunno, it took about the same amount of time (roughly 1920-1990) for Communism under the Soviet regime to fall apart. Was Soviet Communism an example of “some pretty solid governing” in the interim? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-kennedy-on-the-watch-list/260720/102 "2004-08-21T22:27:56Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > I dunno, it took about the same amount of time (roughly 1920-1990) for Communism under the Soviet regime to fall apart. Was Soviet Communism an example of “some pretty solid governing” in the interim? Cute. Meaningless and off-topic, but cute. You still haven’t explained how Republicans are the party of “small” government, when they so overwhelmingly voted for (not to mention wrote) the Patriot act, which gave the federal government all sorts of new powers and permissions to ignore the rights and properties of individual citizens. Yes, a lot of Dems voted for it too, and I’m not best pleased with them because of it, but right now I’d like to know how you reconcile your passion for small government with your support of George W. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-kennedy-on-the-watch-list/260720/103 "2004-08-21T22:55:38Z")
He can’t, **Miller**. You’re wasting your breath. The First Rule of MilroyJ = If something good comes of a law, it’s the Republicans who made it happen. If a law has negative consequences, the Democrats are responsible for failing to defeat it. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-kennedy-on-the-watch-list/260720/104 "2004-08-21T23:20:32Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > You know, I honestly can’t tell leftists from rightists anymore. It all blurs together. So could you remind me whether or not you were bothered that innocent people in Florida were either disenfranchised or hassled because their names resembled the names on a list of felons? And could you remind me whether you believe that a man named Mohammed is guilty until proved innocent? Isn’t it a bummer when people don’t fit into nice categories. I’m bothered that innocent people in Florida were disenfranchized - I have no problem having people be required to provide ID to prove that they are not on the convicted felons list in order to vote - unfortunately, that isn’t what Florida did. I think racial profiling is stupid - because last I checked Mohammed McVeigh didn’t blow up any buildings in OKC. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-kennedy-on-the-watch-list/260720/105 "2004-08-21T23:41:40Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Cute. Meaningless and off-topic, but cute. You still haven’t explained how Republicans are the party of “small” government, when they so overwhelmingly voted for (not to mention wrote) the Patriot act, which gave the federal government all sorts of new powers and permissions to ignore the rights and properties of individual citizens. Yes, a lot of Dems voted for it too, and I’m not best pleased with them because of it, but right now I’d like to know how you reconcile your passion for small government with your support of George W. No, it’s not that a lot of Dems voted for it, they ALL did, save one, in the Senate. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-kennedy-on-the-watch-list/260720/106 "2004-08-21T23:50:08Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > I am scared of visiting the US, and not for fear of terrorism but for fear of your own inmigration authorities. Hon, I _am_ a citizen of the US, but when I’ve traveled abroad I’ve feared US immigration. They’ve never been particularly nice. Their disposition has not improved in recent years. > [@](#): > > We all to get off the plain, clear inmigration (thankfully ours was the only plane been cleared at that time), stand in line for quite a long time, be fingerprinted, photographed, stand some more time with nothing to do or nowhere to go and then board the plane. See, what I can’t get is why some of my fellow citizens can’t seem to grasp that requiring this of people makes them feel like criminals, even when they’re entirely innocent. It is WRONG to treat the innocent as you treat criminals. There has to be a better way. > [@](#): > > I completely accept that as it is your country you should do as you see fit. Problem is, a LOT of us don’t think this is “fit” at all, yet we have no voice. It’s not “the people” deciding this, it’s a bunch of settled-in powermongers in Washingotn DC deciding this. > [@](#): > > But as it is I rather not travel to the US unless it is strictly necessary. Me either! At least not by commercial airplane. > [@](#): > > I suddenly don’t feel quite welcomed in the US. Niether do I - and I was born here. Seriously, I feel like my country has been stolen from me. There are so many wrong things happening and I often feel totally helpless to change the course of it all. > [@](#): > > Why is security more military-like in the US than it is in Europe? That is a real, honest question. Perhaps it will help clear my aprehension. MY theory (and it’s only opinion) is that these systems are being set up, and decisions made by, a bunch of arrogant, self-righteous cowards who believe they can insulate themselves from events and to hell with anyone not in their select group. Nor does Dubya have any real notion of what war is truly about, unlike his father who I actually had some respect for. Dubya is more than willing to send off other people’s children to die or be maimed for his cause, but do HIS children run any risk? Hell no! They’re surronded by guards - as is he himself. Indeed, in the presence of King George the First Ammendment is suspended - if you disagree with his views, or are even _suspected_ of _possibly_ disagreeing, you are imprisoned in a “Free Speech Zone” (ah! The irony!) surronded by fences for the duration of his visit to your area - you may speak all you want, but he will never see or hear you, it is so very important that he be insulated from dissension. His guards feel utterly justified at shutting down any area he visits in the name of “security”, regardless of inconvenience to the peasents or economic impact to a country already staggering under economic hardship. Security is more “military” in America because of who is in the White House, who is Attorney General, and who else is in control at the top of the bureacracy. This is not my country any more. I fear my America died in September of 2001. But I have not yet given up all hope. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2004, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-kennedy-on-the-watch-list/260720/107 "2004-08-21T23:55:47Z")
Hey **Broomstick** , do you do melodrama much? Go ahead and vote for Kerry, see how that changes things much, if at all. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-kennedy-on-the-watch-list/260720/108 "2004-08-22T00:06:24Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > No, it’s not that a lot of Dems voted for it, they ALL did, save one, in the Senate. Right, so it’s your stated position that when George Bush does something demonstrably contrary to the principles of his party, it’s alright as long as your political enemies vote for it too, because then they can’t complain? That’s fucking pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-kennedy-on-the-watch-list/260720/109 "2004-08-22T00:10:20Z")
Yeah, I guess I’m melodramatic giving how fucking often I’ve had to sit on the ground due to some dumbass “temporary flight restriction” that actually does _jack shit_ for any real security. Maybe I’m fucking tired of being late to work because someone left a bag on a goddamned train. Maybe I’m fucking sick of people who think asking for me an ID every two blocks (yer papers, please, fraulein) is going to do fuck all to make me safer - what, terrorists are too stupid to forge ID’s?. How the FUCK does confiscating _nail clippers_ make me safer? What a crock of shit. Don’t get me wrong - I am certainly in favor of REAL security - but what we have now is 90% bullshit window dressing and if you can’t see it, it must be because you have your head up your ass. The ONLY thing that has actually improved safety on airlines is a better cockpit door. THAT’S IT. The “watch list” is a completely bullshit farce the way it’s set up and run. And, by the way, nowhere did I say I intend to vote for Kerry. For that matter, I’ve never said who I voted for last election. You just knee-jerk _assume_ I’m democrat-liberal… as if it would be impossible to be both Republican AND anti-Bush, Jr. Which only betrays what a fucked up bigot you are. The odds are just as great I voted for Dubya and am now ashamed of that act as the possibility I voted for Al Gore and am now saying “I told you so” Or maybe I voted for Buchannan, as he was on the ballot in Indiana. Is he conservative enough for you? For that matter, I would be entirely within my right to _choose not to vote_, or write in “Donald Duck”. We have not (yet) reached a state in this country where one’s status is based entirely on one’s politcal party and how much you kowtow to the jackass in the White House – I hope to God we never do. But we’re a hell of a lot closer to that state than we used to be. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-kennedy-on-the-watch-list/260720/110 "2004-08-22T00:15:49Z")
> [@Dead Badger](#): > > Right, so it’s your stated position that when George Bush does something demonstrably contrary to the principles of his party, it’s alright as long as your political enemies vote for it too, because then they can’t complain? > > That’s fucking pathetic. Your understanding of our system is pathetic. George Bush didn’t do anything. We, the PEOPLE, in Congress Assembled, voted for the Patriot Act. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-kennedy-on-the-watch-list/260720/111 "2004-08-22T00:18:33Z")
Bullshit. I’m a people, and I didn’t vote for the damned thing. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-kennedy-on-the-watch-list/260720/112 "2004-08-22T00:22:35Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > No, it’s not that a lot of Dems voted for it, they ALL did, save one, in the Senate. Okay, they all did. Every single one of them. Even the guy who voted No only did it because he was drunk and pressed the wrong button. This fact has precisely zero relevance to the post to which you were replying. 'Cause, see, despite the fact that I have Democratic principles, I’m not a blind partisan idiot who defends each and every move by the Democratic party like I’m Davy Crockett at the Alamo. Yeah, a lot of Dems violated the principles I hold dear when the Patriot act came up for a vote, and I’m not shy about admitting it. What’s it going to take you to admit that the Republicans are every bit as hypocritical and two-faced? Or are you instead going to reply to one isolated sentence in this post with another partisan slam that has nothing to do with the topic being addressed? That last question was, of course, rhetorical. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-kennedy-on-the-watch-list/260720/113 "2004-08-22T00:27:37Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Your understanding of our system is pathetic. George Bush didn’t do anything. We, the PEOPLE, in Congress Assembled, voted for the Patriot Act. Since you ignored it last time: George Bush’s AAG drafted the act. Bush signed it into law. As I said before, you can pretend all you like that Bush has nothing to do with what goes on, or how bad laws get enacted and enforced, but that doesn’t make you right, and it doesn’t make the laws right. Just how much bullshit dodging are you going to do in this bizarre effort to somehow disqualify everyone from taking responsibility for or asking questions about PATRIOT? What’s the point? This is not what political debate is about; it should _not_ be a pissing match about who even has the right to enter a debate. If something is right, it should be demonstrably so. If it’s wrong, it should be possible to admit such a thing without putting up such a song and dance that it sounds like we’re asking you to chop your dick off with blunt scissors. ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-kennedy-on-the-watch-list/260720/114 "2004-08-22T00:34:33Z")
Well, I agree stopping Ted Kennedy because of a name similarity is stupid: there’s no chance the man himself could be a terrorist without it being known. (Though I suppose it’s possible that a lesser known celebrity might be.) But it does make sense to check out celebrities seriously. If you just wave them through with a glance at their passport it invites someone with a lookalike and a few goons in suits to bluff their way into an airport, and assume that no-one will check them out because they couldn’t imagine anyone doing that. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-kennedy-on-the-watch-list/260720/115 "2004-08-22T00:34:36Z")
Kerry voted for the Patriot Act. Are you going to vote for him in November? If so, why? ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-kennedy-on-the-watch-list/260720/116 "2004-08-22T00:47:48Z")
> [@Dead Badger](#): > > Since you ignored it last time: George Bush’s AAG drafted the act. Bush signed it into law. As I said before, you can pretend all you like that Bush has nothing to do with what goes on, or how bad laws get enacted and enforced, but that doesn’t make you right, and it doesn’t make the laws right. > > Just how much bullshit dodging are you going to do in this bizarre effort to somehow disqualify everyone from taking responsibility for or asking questions about PATRIOT? What’s the point? This is not what political debate is about; it should _not_ be a pissing match about who even has the right to enter a debate. If something is right, it should be demonstrably so. If it’s wrong, it should be possible to admit such a thing without putting up such a song and dance that it sounds like we’re asking you to chop your dick off with blunt scissors. Look, dickhead, we enacted the Patriot Act because it was in our best interest. Your opinion from Great Britain was not solicited, nor should it be. Sorry if that chaps your ass. Oh well. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-kennedy-on-the-watch-list/260720/117 "2004-08-22T00:51:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Kerry voted for the Patriot Act. Are you going to vote for him in November? If so, why? None of your goddamed fucking business who I am voting for or why, **milroyj**! That’s the principle behind the secret ballot - so assholes like you can’t use a person’s vote against him. Just admit you’re a bigot and a jackass and be done with it. > [@](#): > > Look, dickhead, we enacted the Patriot Act because it was in our best interest. Your opinion from Great Britain was not solicited, nor should it be. Sorry if that chaps your ass. Oh well Just to chap YOUR ass, you toad-licking festering camel turd… **I hearby solicit the opinion of ANY Doper who is residing outside of the United States of America to weigh in with an opinion on any and all issues raised in this thread.** Yeah, I DO care about what other people think. And no, I DON’T agree that the Patriot Act was in our best interests. In fact, I believe many parts of it are downright harmful to this nation. Apparently even some in Congress held that view, because it _wasn’t_ passed unanimously. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-kennedy-on-the-watch-list/260720/118 "2004-08-22T00:56:28Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Apparently even some in Congress held that view, because it _wasn’t_ passed unanimously. 98-1 is about as unaimous as you’re going to get. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-kennedy-on-the-watch-list/260720/119 "2004-08-22T01:01:27Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Look, dickhead, we enacted the Patriot Act because it was in our best interest. Your opinion from Great Britain was not solicited, nor should it be. Sorry if that chaps your ass. Oh well. I’m a US citizen living abroad, you tit. I applaud your great inventiveness in finding yet another reason why your opponents are not allowed to hold an opinion, however. I find it rather tragic that your idea of ideological consistency is a world in which no-one is allowed to question you, but hey, whatever makes you happy. I do note a heartening change in your post, however; the PATRIOT act was in “our best interests”. A position! I wonder, though, if you could explain to me how exactly _this_ instance of big government is wonderful, when all those proposed by Democrats are so inherently naughty? I can’t really think of a way in which the ability to lock up American citizens without charge or judicial oversight is in my interests, either, but I guess this is just another one of those questions I’m not allowed to ask, right? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-kennedy-on-the-watch-list/260720/120 "2004-08-22T01:05:35Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Kerry voted for the Patriot Act. Are you going to vote for him in November? If so, why? in a choice between the administration that authored, advocated, pushed for, and heavily lobbied for the Patriot Act, resisting attempts to challenge it, and a single Senator who voted for it - I’ll have to go against those who had the most to do with it’s enactment. now, will you stop dodging the specific questions raised by **Miller, Dead Badger** etc? and, by the way, since you seem to be arguing that the Democrats were responsible for the Patriot Act, and you also seem to be strongly in favor of it (even when faced with examples of idiotic actions related to it, ie, the subject matter of this thread), can we assume, then, that you’ll be voting Democratic? or, here’s a better idea - why don’t you vote specifically for George Bush **and** ‘straight party’ ticket? That way, your vote will be clear. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-kennedy-on-the-watch-list/260720.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-kennedy-on-the-watch-list/260720.md?page=7)