# Sen. Ted Kennedy:"Torture is an American value"! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 3, 2005, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-ted-kennedy-torture-is-an-american-value/288258 "2005-02-03T21:37:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-ted-kennedy-torture-is-an-american-value/288258/21 "2005-02-03T23:31:28Z")
Can we get a transcript as to what he said? Please pardon me if I’m out of line, but I’d kinda like some context. You know, actual facts as to what our honored pickled senator did or did not say. We’re still allowed to post facts on this board, aren’t we? ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-ted-kennedy-torture-is-an-american-value/288258/22 "2005-02-03T23:38:28Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > “These canapés are good.” “AS GOOD AS THE CANAPES YOU ATE THE NIGHT YOU DROVE MARY JO KOPECHNE TO HER DEATH?!” I never would have thought that a thread discussing both Mary Jo Kopechne’s death and the Bush Administration’s position on torture could make me laugh so damn hard. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-ted-kennedy-torture-is-an-american-value/288258/23 "2005-02-03T23:41:12Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > Can we get a transcript as to what he said? Not quite what you want, but [here’s some General talking about Iraqis:](http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=468587) > [@](#): > > “Actually it’s quite fun to fight 'em, you know. It’s a hell of a hoot. It’s fun to shoot some people. I’ll be right up front with you, I like brawling,” ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-ted-kennedy-torture-is-an-american-value/288258/24 "2005-02-03T23:44:51Z")
> [@Abbie Carmichael](#): > > Totally. > > I mean, there comes a point when we shouldn’t hold someone’s past against them, even if they did let an innocent person die. > > Sheesh. It happened decades ago! It’s not like her life was important or anything. > > :rolleyes: Are you talking about Laura or Ted? ---
**Author:** ![Tenar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@Tenar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenar)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-ted-kennedy-torture-is-an-american-value/288258/25 "2005-02-03T23:47:33Z")
Holy cow, Squink! I thought you were kidding! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-ted-kennedy-torture-is-an-american-value/288258/26 "2005-02-03T23:52:06Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Not quite what you want, but [here’s some General talking about Iraqis:](http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=468587) and here’s an interview with Ashlee Simpson. What? It’s as close to the current topic as your link. ---
**Author:** ![Rufus\_Xavier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@Rufus\_Xavier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rufus_Xavier)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-ted-kennedy-torture-is-an-american-value/288258/27 "2005-02-04T00:06:33Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > Can we get a transcript as to what he said? Please pardon me if I’m out of line, but I’d kinda like some context. You know, actual facts as to what our honored pickled senator did or did not say. We’re still allowed to post facts on this board, aren’t we? It’s time to face it head-on: the OP has no factual basis whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-ted-kennedy-torture-is-an-american-value/288258/28 "2005-02-04T00:08:37Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Not quite what you want, but [here’s some General talking about Iraqis:](http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=468587) Actually, he’s talking about Afghanis. More specifically, about “guys who slap women around for five years because they didn’t wear a veil”. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-ted-kennedy-torture-is-an-american-value/288258/29 "2005-02-04T00:10:51Z")
> [@Early Out](#): > > Leaving the name-calling out of it, I have to say that it’s not easy to tell. Here’s my stab at it: Kennedy was criticizing the Bush Adminstration’s position on torture. You seem to be saying that he is in no position to be making such a criticism, because he was involved in an ugly, deadly affair on Chappaquiddick in 1969 (I note, in passing, that he was never convicted of any crime, but it was still a tragedy that he never really answered for), and therefore lacks the moral authority to make any pronouncement about government-sponsored torture. If that’s not what you were saying, I apologize, but I’m going to need clarification from you, as that’s the only way I could read it. > > I’m maintaining that whatever you think of Ted Kennedy, dismissing his criticism of the Bush Administration’s policy on torture because of the events on Chappaquiddick is simply the lazy man’s way of avoiding dealing with the issue at hand, i.e., is the Bush Adminstration’s policy on torture supportable, or should it be condemned? By shooting the messenger, you seem to think that you’ve gotten ridden of the message, as well. I hid all this in a two sentence post? Wrong. Read sentence one. Kennedy was being sarcastic. The rest was me being sarcastic. Bush’s policies collapse under their own weight. I don’t need Ted’s insight - but that has zilch to do with my comment. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-ted-kennedy-torture-is-an-american-value/288258/30 "2005-02-04T00:15:10Z")
How many times has Kennedy been re-elected since then? 4? 5? He’s had multiple “accountability moments” and been re-elected. Clearly the slate is clean. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-ted-kennedy-torture-is-an-american-value/288258/31 "2005-02-04T00:18:20Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > here’s an interview with Ashlee Simpson. > > What? It’s as close to the current topic as your link. What? My link goes to the heart of America’s apple pie attitude towards dehumanizing foreigners: > [@](#): > > In a statement, Gen. Michael Hagee, commander of the Marine Corps, praised Mattis as “one of this country’s bravest and most experienced military leaders.” That doesn’t look like even a slap on the wrist to you, does it? ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-ted-kennedy-torture-is-an-american-value/288258/32 "2005-02-04T00:19:02Z")
> [@Waverly](#): > > The rest was me being sarcastic. That escaped me entirely. Still does. Whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-ted-kennedy-torture-is-an-american-value/288258/33 "2005-02-04T00:26:34Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > this is a mindless appeal to emotion, and anyone who puts any value on rational discussion will laugh it off like the drivel it is… No shit. And if I tried to excuse Bush because Kennedy is a bad man, I’d be guilty of just such a logical fallacy. However, **where in the hell did I state Bush shouldn’t be criticized because so-and-so did such and such?** What _did_ do sarcastically point out that Ted is a hypocrite, and I don’t concede this point. > [@](#): > > So to those who think Ted Kennedy is scum, I’ll expect to hear you condemning the President and First Lady as well. Watch your knee on that coffee table. I’ve got plenty of bile in my belly for Bush. You need to de-simplify your outlook if you think disliking one senior democrat makes me a republican apologist. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-ted-kennedy-torture-is-an-american-value/288258/34 "2005-02-04T00:27:08Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > What? My link goes to the heart of America’s apple pie attitude towards dehumanizing foreigners And what the fuck does that have to do with what Ted did or did not say? ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-ted-kennedy-torture-is-an-american-value/288258/35 "2005-02-04T00:31:08Z")
[http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050202/1031254.asp](http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050202/1031254.asp) There’s a similar statement in this story, but not what the OP “quoted.” “Mr. Gonzales is at the center of a torture policy that has run roughshod over the values that Americans hold so dear,” Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, D-Mass., said on the floor. Kennedy repeatedly mocked Gonzales, saying “he can’t remember” his role in the prisoner-abuse matter. Does that clear the matter up a wee bit? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-ted-kennedy-torture-is-an-american-value/288258/36 "2005-02-04T00:57:02Z")
This [address from last week might be a little closer](http://baltimorechronicle.com/012805Kennedy.shtml). > [@](#): > > Nothing is more at odds with our values as Americans than the torture of another human being. Do you think that any Americans tell their children with pride that America tortures prisoners? Linky-link for the ‘quote’ in the OP, by any chance? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-ted-kennedy-torture-is-an-american-value/288258/37 "2005-02-04T01:14:18Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Actually, he’s talking about Afghanis. More specifically, about “guys who slap women around for five years because they didn’t wear a veil”. Actually, not quite. According to the [story on the NBC site:](http://www.nbc4.tv/politics/4155808/detail.html) > [@](#): > > The comment, made by Lt. Gen. James Mattis, came in reference to fighting insurgents in **Iraq**. Yes, he did mention Afghanis in his remarks. But in his current assignment: > [@](#): > > Mattis leads Camp Pendleton’s 1st Marine Division in Iraq. He is in charge of the Marine Corps combat development and is based in Quantico, Va. If the ABC site that you linked to (I can’t get that one from work) more clearly spells out that he was talking about having fun shooting Afghanis rather than Iraqis, I apologize for contradicting you. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-ted-kennedy-torture-is-an-american-value/288258/38 "2005-02-04T01:26:42Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > And what the fuck does that have to do with what Ted did or did not say? **Ralph** , who over in GD is enquiring whether he would make a good general, seemed confused over why even Ted Kennedy would say that torture was an American value. This general’s taking joy in the killing of foreigners provides a nice example of the current state of American values with respect to our behavior towards our enemies. Despite that fact that this sort of crap’s been coming out for a year or more now (remember Jesus’ general?), **Ralph** seems unaware of the trend. Perhaps you are as well. That articles I linked to near the top of this thread, general Mattis’ recent declaration, the lack (so far) of adequate reform, or disciplinary action against the general could cause a reasonable person, such as the good senator, to suspect that torture, and dehumanization of our enemies, has been allowed to ooze its way into our value system. ---
**Author:** ![Rufus\_Xavier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@Rufus\_Xavier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rufus_Xavier)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-ted-kennedy-torture-is-an-american-value/288258/39 "2005-02-04T01:55:40Z")
In what way could it be reasonably argued that: “Torture is an American value” Equals, or even resembles: “Nothing is more at odds with our values as Americans than the torture of another human being.” ??? I eagerly (or not) await a response… ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-ted-kennedy-torture-is-an-american-value/288258/40 "2005-02-04T02:06:53Z")
> [@Rufus Xavier](#): > > In what way could it be reasonably argued that: > > “Torture is an American value” Well, you keep doing it! What are values when your works negate them? Nothing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-ted-kennedy-torture-is-an-american-value/288258.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sen-ted-kennedy-torture-is-an-american-value/288258.md?page=3)