# Senator Boxer (D-CA) Lies and doesn't even admit it! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 12, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116 "2011-04-12T17:14:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/41 "2011-04-12T18:52:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Does it bother you to be one of the most idiotic posters here, or do you sort of take it in stride? I certainly wouldn’t trust your assessment. You’re a pathetic liar without even the most vestigial shred of honesty. You’re a mangy dog. A frothing, partisan shit that’s too cowardly to live in the world of facts. Or at least that’s my assessment of you. My cite is this thread. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/42 "2011-04-12T18:52:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > “Access” That means they give out the phone number of the actual mammogram provider. > > What do you think they’re doing, giving out a secret password? They’re giving out information that’s in the phone book under ‘M.’ They also provide funding. Funding is access. Providing information, referrals, making appointments and providing access can all legitmately called “services,” and mammograms can be legitimately listed as one of the services that PP provides, especially since they provide assistance for it, and that financial assistance was the very thing that Boxer was talking about with regards to the budget bill. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/43 "2011-04-12T18:54:30Z")
[Mediamatters piece on the mammogram/Planned Parenthood issue](http://mediamatters.org/research/201103310031) [An earlier article on Mediamatters](http://mediamatters.org/research/201103300021). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/44 "2011-04-12T18:57:47Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > [Mediamatters piece on the mammogram/Planned Parenthood issue](http://mediamatters.org/research/201103310031) > > [An earlier article on Mediamatters](http://mediamatters.org/research/201103300021). This should put the lid on any chance for **Bricker** characterize any Boxer said as untrue (or as “hyperbolic,” or as a “slip of the tongue”), but he’ll probably just try to fall back on saying Kyl wasn’t lying either. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/45 "2011-04-12T18:58:42Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > [Mediamatters piece on the mammogram/Planned Parenthood issue](http://mediamatters.org/research/201103310031) > > [An earlier article on Mediamatters](http://mediamatters.org/research/201103300021). The funding for those services comes from BCCS, not PP. PP isn’t paying for the mammograms, and PP isn’t performing the mammograms. What PP is providing is a phone number. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/46 "2011-04-12T18:59:12Z")
[More.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/planned-parenthood-challenged-on-purported-mammogram-claim/2011/03/30/AFjCFO3B_story.html) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/47 "2011-04-12T19:01:46Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This should put the lid on any chance for **Bricker** characterize any Boxer said as untrue (or as “hyperbolic,” or as a “slip of the tongue”), but he’ll probably just try to fall back on saying Kyl wasn’t lying either. No. Because PP is merely the referrer. They don’t pay, and they don’t scan. I’m not a prostitute just because I give you the URL for Craigslist and you use it to find someone to fuck you for money. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/48 "2011-04-12T19:02:21Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > [More.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/planned-parenthood-challenged-on-purported-mammogram-claim/2011/03/30/AFjCFO3B_story.html) That link does not claim what you think it claims. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/49 "2011-04-12T19:03:27Z")
Bricker, this is foolishness. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/50 "2011-04-12T19:03:55Z")
When I was in college, I took classes with a lot of idiots. A lot of them stand out. But only one shows up in this paragraph. That’s the guy who, in a rant about privileged first-worlders, said that “70% of the world’s children go to bed hungry every night.” I interrupted him and said I was pretty sure that number was wrong and I wondered what his source was. He looked at me with undisguised contempt and said, “I don’t know what the number is, but the point is that…” I remember that guy because of the subtext: **I make numbers up in order to make myself sound more accurate. Don’t believe any number I give you**. And that’s what Kyl did. Clear hyperbole involves the impossible: “Planned Parenthood does billions more abortions than everyone else combined” would be clear hyperbole. “PLanned Parenthood has a million different ways to juggle their financing to fund abortions with federal dollars” would be hyperbole. But what he said wasn’t clear hyperbole: it took the form of a statistic that would be thoroughly plausible to people who are unfamiliar with Planned Parenthood’s operations. What’s more, if he’d used the factual statistic, his statement would be thoroughly underwhelming, almost an argument for his opposition. His rhetorical punch depended on the false claim. And Boxer? At worst, she was imprecise: if PP provides funding for mammograms, then they can list that as a service, although a slightly different service than the others listed. She lists mammograms as part of a list of vital health services provided by PP; do you agree that mammograms are in the same category of service as pap smears, cancer screenings, and OB-GYN services? If so, then its inclusion in the list was either imprecise or a tiny and substantially insignificant error. Kyl’s statistic was the entire point of his claim. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/51 "2011-04-12T19:06:14Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > That link does not claim what you think it claims. I’m not claiming anything, I’m simply trying to offer information for people to make their determinations. I’ll leave the inane nitpicking, pedantic arguments, and false equivalencies to other people. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/52 "2011-04-12T19:08:52Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > [More.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/planned-parenthood-challenged-on-purported-mammogram-claim/2011/03/30/AFjCFO3B_story.html) From that link: > [@Washington Post](#): > > But a Planned Parenthood spokesman denied that the organization claimed to offer mammograms, saying the transcript of the show clearly shows Richards was referring to the overall effect of on women’s health services if the health overhaul legislation was repealed and not specifically the effect of defunding her group. Whose case are you making? Now we have a PP spokesperson denying that the organization claims to offer mammograms, and **Diogenes** claiming that they actually do offer mammograms. Which one is lying? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/53 "2011-04-12T19:10:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The funding for those services comes from BCCS, not PP. > > PP isn’t paying for the mammograms, and PP isn’t performing the mammograms. > > What PP is providing is a phone number. No: what they’re doing is helping women arrange for it to happen and arrange for the funding for it to happen. Women don’t apply directly for funding to the Komen foundation, they go to PP and get it to happen through them. Having a phone number is insufficient for these women: they need the services of PP. Read the second link more carefully. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/54 "2011-04-12T19:10:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Which one is lying? You. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/55 "2011-04-12T19:11:10Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > When I was in college, I took classes with a lot of idiots. A lot of them stand out. But only one shows up in this paragraph. That’s the guy who, in a rant about privileged first-worlders, said that “70% of the world’s children go to bed hungry every night.” I interrupted him and said I was pretty sure that number was wrong and I wondered what his source was. He looked at me with undisguised contempt and said, “I don’t know what the number is, but the point is that…” > > I remember that guy because of the subtext: **I make numbers up in order to make myself sound more accurate. Don’t believe any number I give you**. > > And that’s what Kyl did. Clear hyperbole involves the impossible: “Planned Parenthood does billions more abortions than everyone else combined” would be clear hyperbole. “PLanned Parenthood has a million different ways to juggle their financing to fund abortions with federal dollars” would be hyperbole. But what he said wasn’t clear hyperbole: it took the form of a statistic that would be thoroughly plausible to people who are unfamiliar with Planned Parenthood’s operations. What’s more, if he’d used the factual statistic, his statement would be thoroughly underwhelming, almost an argument for his opposition. His rhetorical punch depended on the false claim. > > And Boxer? At worst, she was imprecise: if PP provides funding for mammograms, then they can list that as a service, although a slightly different service than the others listed. She lists mammograms as part of a list of vital health services provided by PP; do you agree that mammograms are in the same category of service as pap smears, cancer screenings, and OB-GYN services? If so, then its inclusion in the list was either imprecise or a tiny and substantially insignificant error. > > Kyl’s statistic was the entire point of his claim. As is often the case, you make a calm argument that completely deflates my rant. But here I’m going to hang my hat on this: PP does not even pay for the mammograms. They partner with other organizations that actually provide the funding. So it’s a bit more than “imprecise.” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/56 "2011-04-12T19:11:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Now we have a PP spokesperson denying that the organization claims to offer mammograms, and **Diogenes** claiming that they actually do offer mammograms. > > Which one is lying? This is bullshit. The spokesperson was denying that that particular segment of the show was claiming that PP provides mammograms. Media Matters claims that certain Planned Parenthood centers do provide access to mammograms. There’s no contradiction here. Really, **Bricker** , I’m having trouble believing you’ll take this claim seriously tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/57 "2011-04-12T19:12:25Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No: what they’re doing is helping women arrange for it to happen and arrange for the funding for it to happen. Women don’t apply directly for funding to the Komen foundation, they go to PP and get it to happen through them. Having a phone number is insufficient for these women: they need the services of PP. Read the second link more carefully. What stops a woman from going to BCCS directly, or Komen directly? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/58 "2011-04-12T19:13:58Z")
They often don’t know where to go, and PP is a recognizable, familiar and ubiquitous resource for them. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/59 "2011-04-12T19:14:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Whose case are you making? Not all of us are partisan hacks like you Bricker. I just thought some actual information about the debate would be helpful to people who make up their mind based on facts, not party affiliation. Personally, I find your attempts at portraying as equal Kyl’s statements and Pelosi/Planned Parenthood’s to be pathetically bogged down in semantics and partisan based line drawing, and yet another example of your descent into Dio-ness. Despite that, I thought more information would be better. Sorry if you disagree. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/60 "2011-04-12T19:14:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > As is often the case, you make a calm argument that completely deflates my rant. > > But here I’m going to hang my hat on this: PP does not even pay for the mammograms. They partner with other organizations that actually provide the funding. > > So it’s a bit more than “imprecise.” Defund and fewer women would get mammograms. That’s a lot closer to the truth than 90% is to 3%. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116.md?page=4)