# Senator Boxer (D-CA) Lies and doesn't even admit it! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 12, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116 "2011-04-12T17:14:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/61 "2011-04-12T19:16:41Z")
Personally, **Bricker** , I think that if you want to excuse Senator Kyl on the grounds that it’s more equitable to characterize his statement as hyperbole than as dishonesty, you should do it in that thread. I also think that it would serve you right if a mod were to fold this thread into the Kyl thread. Or fold the Kyl thread into this one (since this one is so much longer). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/62 "2011-04-12T19:16:42Z")
Rats. Well, turns out PP picks up 10% of the cost of mammograms here in Virginia. OK. I’m an idiot. Nothing to see here. Move along. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/63 "2011-04-12T19:19:05Z")
I’m sure some other liberal lied at some point in the past. No need to give up on your effort to make Kyl into a goodguy yet! ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/64 "2011-04-12T19:23:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But here I’m going to hang my hat on this If you want to shift the numbers in the proper response to you (“X% serious, Y% mock”), OK. On your head be any carpal tunnel cases resulting from the ever-growing string of zeroes required for X and the ever-growing string of nines required for Y. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/65 "2011-04-12T19:26:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I remember that guy because of the subtext: **I make numbers up in order to make myself sound more accurate. Don’t believe any number I give you**. Everybody knows that 87% of all statistics are just made up on the spot. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/66 "2011-04-12T19:27:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What stops a woman from going to BCCS directly, or Komen directly? You’ve already conceded, which I appreciate, but I’m still going to respond to this: that’s not how nonprofits work, in my experience. The humane society I used to work for got many thousands of dollars worth of grants from Bob Barker’s DJ&T Foundation to provide spay/neuter services. We did this in the form of vouchers: people could come to us and, with very little paperwork, receive a voucher that reduced or eliminated the cost of getting their pet sterilized at a local clinic. The funds from the grants went 100% to the vouchers; our only contribution to the effort was filling out the paperwork for them and passing it on to DJ&T for reimbursement. We needed DJ&T’s money. They needed our on-the-ground organizational skills. Both of us needed the vet clinic’s medical expertise. Without all three of us, the surgeries wouldn’t have happened. And we advertised in our fundraising materials–wholly appropriately, IMO–that we provided spay/neuter assistance for low-income pet owners. People couldn’t go directly to DJ&T, because the foundation wasn’t set up for individual assistance. They were set up to give block grants. The situation with PP, the Komen Foundation, and the radiology clinics sounds very similar. Except fewer puppies. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/67 "2011-04-12T19:33:20Z")
But here’s the thing, **Bricker**. You never presented any evidence that Boxer lied. Even if PP didn’t provide any funds for mammograms, how do you know that Boxer wasn’t simply mistaken? How do you get “lie” out of this story? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/68 "2011-04-12T19:33:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Rats. > > Well, turns out PP picks up 10% of the cost of mammograms here in Virginia. > > OK. I’m an idiot. Nothing to see here. Move along. No quite, dude. Answer this question, first: If Senator Boxer makes a statement that she thinks is correct, but it later turns out that it was not correct, is she a liar, or is she mistaken? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/69 "2011-04-12T19:34:01Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You’ve already conceded, which I appreciate, but I’m still going to respond to this: that’s not how nonprofits work, in my experience. > > The humane society I used to work for got many thousands of dollars from Bob Barker’s DJ&T Foundation to provide spay/neuter services. We did this in the form of vouchers: people could come to us and, with very little paperwork, receive a voucher that reduced or eliminated the cost of getting their pet sterilized at a local clinic. The funds for the grant went 100% to the vouchers; our only contribution to the effort was filling out the paperwork for them and passing it on to DJ&T for reimbursement. > > People couldn’t go directly to DJ&T, because the foundation wasn’t set up for individual assistance. They were set up to give block grants. > > We needed DJ&T’s money. They needed our on-the-ground organizational skills. Both of us needed the vet clinic’s medical expertise. Without all three of us, the surgeries wouldn’t have happened. > > And we advertised in our fundraising materials–wholly appropriately, IMO–that we provided spay/neuter assistance for low-income pet owners. > > The situation with PP, the Komen Foundation, and the radiology clinics sounds very similar. Except fewer puppies. Right. I’m actually on the board of a pro-life non-profit, and we provide certain things directly (cribs, baby clothes, vocational training) and act as the referrer for many other things (Sec. 8 housing, TANF). JUst recently we entered into an arrangement with the state: they give us free car seats, and we distribute them; we have to make sure our recipients qualify under income guidelines. I wouldn’t say we provide car seats, even though we physcially hand them out, because they cost us nothing. But your point is well-taken. Certainly the discovery that PP actually pays a portion of the costs in my own state took the wind out of my sails on this point. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/70 "2011-04-12T19:35:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No quite, dude. > Answer this question, first: If Senator Boxer makes a statement that she thinks is correct, but it later turns out that it was not correct, is she a liar, or is she mistaken? She’s mistaken. She’s not a liar. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/71 "2011-04-12T19:38:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > She’s mistaken. She’s not a liar. Now, if Senator Kyl lies, than admits that he lies, is he a liar, or is he mistaken? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/72 "2011-04-12T19:39:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > She’s mistaken. She’s not a liar. So, how did you conclude that she lied when you wrote the OP? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/73 "2011-04-12T19:39:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Of COURSE Boxer isn’t lying. > > But neither was Kyl. OF COURSE Kyle was not lying. After all, his office merely told us that what he said was " **not intended to be a factual statement ".** So - Kyle did did not INTEND to make a factual statement, therefore, he … um sorry, I’ve just lost my train of thought here. Oh, right, Kyle really intended to make a non-factual statement, so we have to look at his intentions here, or rather his non-intentions, so therefore any accusation of lying on his part must be… sorry again. Let’s analyse Boxer’s “lie” She said: > [@](#): > > In California alone, hundreds of thousands of women use the organization’s “life-saving” services – including cancer screenings, mammograms, day-to-day health care, OB-GYN services as well as contraception and family planning. She SHOULD have said: > [@](#): > > In California alone, hundreds of thousands of women use the organization’s “life-saving” services – including cancer screenings, **referrals for** mammograms, day-to-day health care, OB-GYN services as well as contraception and family planning. (bolding mine) So it is **Bricker** ’s contention that Boxer deliberately, and with foreknowledge that it was untrue, committed a lie by ommision - that is, she knowingly left out the words “referrals for” in order to advance her agenda. Because that clearly changes the \*\*entire meaning \*\*of her statement (or not). We know that she did this deliberately, because **Bricker** told us so. And we know that it is important to differentiate between a deliberate, knowing lie and a simple omission of a detail, because **Bricker** has, in the past, been VERY adamant about making sure we all know the difference \ ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/74 "2011-04-12T19:40:55Z")
On the positive side, nobody has chimed in with “ **Bricker** , you’re better than this”, so at least folks around here are learning. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/75 "2011-04-12T19:51:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > “Mammograms” is a slip of the tongue? That’s quite a tongue. Well, “Mammograms” for “mammogram referrals” is an easily understood slip of the tongue. As opposed to “Planned Parenthood is in the abortion business” when 3% of _donated_ funds, purposefully kept sequestered away from public funding, is expended on abortions; I don’t know how that would figure on the full national budget, as they intentionally keep two sets of accounts to ensure that no taxpayer money goes for abortions. This out-and-out **lie** has been repeated constantly by the religious organization of which **Bricker** is a proud member. And it has been used as justification by the political party of which he is a member to justify bills which would deny Planned Parenthood services to the poor. He’s a lawyer. Like all lawyers, he’s in business to twist the facts to support his causes. To hell with justice or the commandments of Christ if they get in the way of his goals! ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/76 "2011-04-12T19:57:35Z")
Bricker, it’s really very simple. Do you think the gravamen of Sen. Boxer’s complaint, namely that defunding PP would restrict low-income access to health services generally of the same type as mammograms, is false? Do you believe that the essence of Sen. Kyl’s remark, namely that the overwhelming majority of services provided by PP are abortions, is true? Perhaps you resist this characterization of the arguments. Were mammograms the _sine qua non_ of Sen. Boxer’s complaint? Was Sen. Kyl’s goal anything other than characterizing PP as principally an abortion provider? Is it your position that it is just as easy to overstate, by a factor 30, the percentage of PP’s activity given over to a controversial medical procedure such as abortion as it is to include mistakenly mammorgams among a list of similar medical procedures that are afforded by PP? Do gratify us with your response. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/77 "2011-04-12T20:15:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Now, if Senator Kyl lies, than admits that he lies, is he a liar, or is he mistaken? Tellingly, even Kyl didn’t try to spin his remark as hyperbole. Probably wishes he did, now… at least one person out there seems to find that credible. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/78 "2011-04-12T21:01:42Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > On the positive side, nobody has chimed in with “ **Bricker** , you’re better than this”, so at least folks around here are learning. Well, he is now. A little bit, at least. Always look on the bright side of life. ---
**Author:** ![Ichbin\_Dubist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/51bf81/32.png) [@Ichbin\_Dubist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ichbin_Dubist)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/79 "2011-04-12T21:10:16Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Tellingly, even Kyl didn’t try to spin his remark as hyperbole. “I have a wide stance on interpreting percentages.” ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116/80 "2011-04-12T21:11:50Z")
The thread has moved on, so please forgive the _pro forma_ response: > [@Bricker](#): > > Of COURSE. Why would a false statement about Planned Parenthood be equivalent to a false statement about Planned Parenthood? > > Why, the two are as different as night and … uh… later that same night. So, your position apparently is that they are precisely equivalent. I’m sorry, but I find your argument unconvincing, and no one else here seems to agree with you either. > [@](#): > > Of COURSE. Because he’s a Republican. > > He LIES. > > Boxer is a Democrat. > > She has “slips of the tongue.” I haven’t made any statements at all about Boxer, nor have I at any point claimed that Kyl lied simply because he is a Republican. I guess maybe you believe that lying is an inherently Republican trait. I certainly don’t. > [@](#): > > I do have just as much right as you to post a thread, though. Stay out of this one if exposing the utter hypocriscy of the SDMB Loony Left bothers you so much, mmmkay? No, not OK. I will post to whatever thread I care to, whenever I care to, and you haven’t a goddam thing to say about it. Meanwhile, in my view it takes a truly breathtaking level of cynicism to claim that Kyl’s blatant lie, followed by borderline boasting about it by his office, is of no concern to anyone except what is rather arbitrarily defined by you as a ‘loony left’. I mean c’mon. Even the most partisan hack ever hatched would have to admit that Kyl is worthy of at least a little derision, no? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-boxer-d-ca-lies-and-doesnt-even-admit-it/578116.md?page=5)