# Senator Frist wants Constitutional Amendment banning gay marriage **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 29, 2003, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-frist-wants-constitutional-amendment-banning-gay-marriage/185211 "2003-06-29T20:04:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-frist-wants-constitutional-amendment-banning-gay-marriage/185211/81 "2003-06-30T18:35:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jlzania \* > \*\*I doubt that many of **gobear’s** detractors would’ve adopted the same forbearing attitude if Thurmond’s legacy of intolerence had been directed at them and their partners. \*\* I’ve been semi arguing on 'tother side but this sort of thing pushes my buttons big time. It assumes quite a bit about other folks - that their moral stance is somehow predicated upon casual thought, vs. deep pondering, that had they experienced one specific other thing, their view would be different. We see that in pretty much every fucking debate around here. “If you had children, you’d see it my way” “If you had a uterus, you’d sing a different tune” “If one of your loved ones had died this way, you wouldn’t be saying that” etc. How presumptious. ONe of the wonderful things about human beings is their ability to **empathize** - I have not experienced every potential tragedy or joy in my own personal life, but that doesn’t mean that I can’t offer support or have views on the subject. I don’t require that my doctor have experienced every ailment before treating it, nor do I presume that since he hasn’t experienced childbirth, his views, if they are different from mine, are immediately dismissable because he’s not experienced it. you can, however, suggest that someone has failed to notice specific differences, explaining them, so in the current debate, **Mockingbird, Otto, et al** could point out specific determining differences between their situations and situations faced by **Scylla et al**. Merely repeating “you’ve not experienced such and such therefore you have no way of understanding” is bullshit, plain and simple. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-frist-wants-constitutional-amendment-banning-gay-marriage/185211/82 "2003-06-30T18:43:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > What the hell are these idiots thinking-that the minute we allow our homosexual brothers and sisters the same rights us straight folks have, that the country will degenerate into one big orgy? They say that like it’s a _bad_ thing… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-frist-wants-constitutional-amendment-banning-gay-marriage/185211/83 "2003-06-30T18:43:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > **And how am I acting like a bigot? Who did I discriminate against? When did I support the elimination of heterosexual marriage? When did I advocate unequal treatment that favored gay people over heterosexuals?** You misinterpreted what I wrote (I’ll admit I wasn’t too clear)- you claimed that I allow bigots to get away with hateful statements while only calling “victims of prejudice” on them, and your implication was that celebrating someone’s death is something that a bigot would do. My point is that it’s ugly enough to see a bigot doing it, and it ain’t any prettier to see someone else doing it as well. > [@](#): > > If you are calling me a bigot because I do not weep for Strom Thurmond, then I suggest you do the same for those who did not weep for Bull Connor, Lester Maddox, or William L. Pierce. That’s exactly it- weep, damn you, weep! I didn’t “weep” for any of them either. But as has been pointed out MANY TIMES, there’s a big difference between not weeping and celebrating and it ain’t an either/or proposition. Instead of simply quoting MLK Jr., howsabout doing as he would have done? ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-frist-wants-constitutional-amendment-banning-gay-marriage/185211/84 "2003-06-30T18:53:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > \*\*How presumptious. > > ONe of the wonderful things about human beings is their ability to **empathize** - I have not experienced every potential tragedy or joy in my own personal life, but that doesn’t mean that I can’t offer support or have views on the subject. I don’t require that my doctor have experienced every ailment before treating it, nor do I presume that since he hasn’t experienced childbirth, his views, if they are different from mine, are immediately dismissable because he’s not experienced it. > > you can, however, suggest that someone has failed to notice specific differences, explaining them, so in the current debate, **Mockingbird, Otto, et al** could point out specific determining differences between their situations and situations faced by **Scylla et al**. Merely repeating “you’ve not experienced such and such therefore you have no way of understanding” is bullshit, plain and simple. \*\* What is **presumptuous** , is that _you_ have put words in _our_ mouths and then criticized us for it. What was said by _some_ of us to Scylla is that our reasons for feeling as we do is predicated by our experience and that he did not seem able in anyway to grasp that. Someone who isn’t gay CAN understand. Scylla and some on here can’t seem to understand and are being assholes because of it, trying to recast some of us as monsters for enjoying the fact that Thurmond is dead. What _is_ **bullshit** is that you have weighed into another debate in a halfassed way and haven’t taken the time to read through everything and are just shooting your mouth off _again_. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-frist-wants-constitutional-amendment-banning-gay-marriage/185211/85 "2003-06-30T18:59:36Z")
Excuse the fuck out of me, but how can you fucking claim to know what I have read or not? I have followed this and the other thread, and yes, it seems to me that you et all have claimed that **Scylla** can’t understand, and ‘until you’ve experienced this, you cannot understand’. and that is indeed bullshit. I said it in the other thread as well. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-frist-wants-constitutional-amendment-banning-gay-marriage/185211/86 "2003-06-30T19:09:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > \*\*Excuse the fuck out of me, but how can you fucking claim to know what I have read or not? > > I have followed this and the other thread, and yes, it seems to me that you et all have claimed that **Scylla** can’t understand, and ‘until you’ve experienced this, you cannot understand’. > > and that is indeed bullshit. I said it in the other thread as well. \*\* I don’t question what you’ve read but your ability to comprehend it. The fuck is not excused out of you. You **are** the Weakest Link, _goodbye_. ---
**Author:** ![jlzania](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jlzania](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlzania)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-frist-wants-constitutional-amendment-banning-gay-marriage/185211/87 "2003-06-30T19:15:51Z")
**wring** , I apologize if I’ve offended you. My point, however, is that although I can sincerely empathize with **gobear** and other gay posters, I can never really know what it’s like to suffer daily harassment simply because of who I love. I’ve never had to face this reality and no matter how much I use my imagine to try and understand what it is like, ultimately I run into a brick wall. I remember walking down a street in Oakland many years ago. I was with a friend and he happened to be black. We were pulled over by a police officer. It was a fairly innocuous interaction but my friend began to shake with fear and repressed anger. That’s when I understood that I could empathize all I wanted but I couldn’t understand what it meant to be a black man in America that truly believed that everytime he was stopped by a policeman, he might end up with a bullet in his back. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-frist-wants-constitutional-amendment-banning-gay-marriage/185211/88 "2003-06-30T19:22:25Z")
> [@](#): > > I have followed this and the other thread, and yes, it seems to me that you et all have claimed that Scylla can’t understand, and ‘until you’ve experienced this, you cannot understand’. Well, you can’t claim that **Scylla** has shown even the barest rudiments of empathy with gay people, so right away you’re onto a non-starter. But you are correct, up to a point, that ‘until you’ve experienced this, you cannot understand’ bullshit. A concerned heterosexual who has made a serious study of gay issues would certainly be entiled to a respectful hearing. You have never been in prison (that I know of) yet you are extremely knowledgeable about issues facing prisoners because of your job. But someone blueskying grossly uninformed opinions, as **Scylla** has done, has not earned the same respect for his opinions. And there’s another element. > [@](#): > > I don’t require that my doctor have experienced every ailment before treating it, nor do I presume that since he hasn’t experienced childbirth, his views, if they are different from mine, are immediately dismissable because he’s not experienced it. Certainly, the doctor’s expertise must be respected, but can he teel you how morning sickness feels? How did it feel when his water broke? How did he cope with his 26 hours of labor? In the same way, even someone who is genuinely empathetic (which **Scylla** emphatically is not) cannot tell you the first-person pain many of us have felt. I am sympathetic to the issues facing black people and am reasonably educated on black history and culture. But if I were to say that I know what it is to **be** black, I’d get my head handed to me. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-frist-wants-constitutional-amendment-banning-gay-marriage/185211/89 "2003-06-30T19:31:10Z")
**jlzania** you’ve not offended me, per se. and while I agree that I cannot know exactly how some one else (anyone else) feels, that’s not really the point, either. The fact is, that **no one** can ‘really know’ how anyone else feels. because we all have different experiences. however, we’re able to empathize, extrapolate from our own experiences and get a glimmer of understanding. So I generally get pissed off when, for example, I make my stand against capital punishment and are told that since I"ve not experienced having a loved one murdered, my stance can be summarily rejected as ‘not having sufficient experience to really understand’. **Mockingbird** - your reply just demonstrates further shrillness. It seems you cannot accept anyone ever disagreeing with you. I feel sorry for that. But I also reject your assesment of me and others. YOu simply do not have sufficient or the right kind of experience in order to judge me. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-frist-wants-constitutional-amendment-banning-gay-marriage/185211/90 "2003-06-30T19:31:14Z")
> [@](#): > > you can, however, suggest that someone has failed to notice specific differences, explaining them, so in the current debate, Mockingbird, Otto, et al could point out specific determining differences between their situations and situations faced by Scylla et al. Merely repeating “you’ve not experienced such and such therefore you have no way of understanding” is bullshit, plain and simple. I did post specific determining differences, and the response was “it could happen to me too,” “how many gay parents have lost their kids” and “why are you asking me these questions?” ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-frist-wants-constitutional-amendment-banning-gay-marriage/185211/91 "2003-06-30T19:35:51Z")
**Otto** that is a fair response. and I agree that that type of response does demonstrate a disinclination of understanding, which is **different** from stating that “since you’re not gay you can’t possibly understand”. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-frist-wants-constitutional-amendment-banning-gay-marriage/185211/92 "2003-06-30T19:50:01Z")
The “since you’re not \_\_\_, you can’t possibly understand” also tends to lead towards “more oppressed than thou” and people ignoring other groups that are targeted. **wring** , I once had this argument with **Mockingbird**. I pointed out that then, he’ll possibly never understand discrimination against women, and the fact that women can’t hide that they’re women, but you can’t tell if someone is gay right away went way over his head. (Of course, I was merely using that example to make a point, not saying who was more harassed than who). It falls on deaf ears, I’m afraid. I always try to IMAGINE how I would feel in that kind of situation. Does that help? Like Anne Shirley, I have a great imagination! ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-frist-wants-constitutional-amendment-banning-gay-marriage/185211/93 "2003-06-30T19:52:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > **You’re a bigot because you side with the homophobe and not his victims. Since you are not Queen of the Message Board, you don’t get to dictate what may or may not be posted, so if I choose to express relief that a hated oppressor is no longer around to make life difficult, that’s too goddamn bad for you.** Please, you and yours have thrown out bigot so much lately it has become meaningless. I enjoy being called a bigot from you since it proves that you are still lashing out with hate instead of thinking rationally, which means i’m still on the right side. > [@](#): > > Moreoever, other people posted far more gleefully than I did, but I’m the one you chose to scold? Maybe i expect better from the more intelligent posters. **Mockingbird** i expect to ramble around like a schizophrenic werewolf attacking anything that moves with his three brain cells, but from someone who normally is a respectful poster who sees where the other side is coming from, you’ve done a good job at misrepresenting my arguments, turning it into an anti-gay thing and hiding behind a shield of calling me a bigot. Declaring yourself right on any and all gay issues simply because you yourself are gay is laughable and comes off as written as a parody of extremeist position. being gay does not protect you from being wrong, especially on the grave dancing issue. > [@](#): > > And Senator Frist can do with his Bible what I do with my partner. \*\* I don’t really care what Frist does since this crap will never pass. But i resent being labeled on the same side as him simply because i didn’t decry it fast enough to satisfy you. Please point out where i’ve supported him, i’d love to see it since it doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-frist-wants-constitutional-amendment-banning-gay-marriage/185211/94 "2003-06-30T20:09:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Declaring yourself right on any and all gay issues simply because you yourself are gay is laughable and comes off as written as a parody of extremeist position. being gay does not protect you from being wrong, especially on the grave dancing issue. I am not and have never declared myself right on any issue merely because I am gay. I feel am right on thsi issue for several reasons !. You’ve demonstrated that you have no knowledge of Strom Thurmond’s hisotry. 1. You insist on saying that “I’m dancing on Strom’s grave” when all I am doing is posting expressions of releif at his passing on a message board. Ypou allow no room for people to post negative opinions of Strom and his career without using the hyperbole of “grave-dancing.” 2. You have posted only anger at people posting negatively about Strom; you have not in any way acknowledged the reasons why people feel the way they do. When you concern only for the bigot and dismiss all reeaction to his acts, you are siding with the bigots. > [@](#): > > I don’t really care what Frist does since this crap will never pass. But i resent being labeled on the same side as him simply because i didn’t decry it fast enough to satisfy you. You haven’t decried it at all, yet. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-frist-wants-constitutional-amendment-banning-gay-marriage/185211/95 "2003-06-30T20:09:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > \*\* > > **Mockingbird** - your reply just demonstrates further shrillness. It seems you cannot accept anyone ever disagreeing with you. I feel sorry for that. But I also reject your assesment of me and others. YOu simply do not have sufficient or the right kind of experience in order to judge me. \*\* I can’t tell if this is hypocrisy or a pathetic attempt at sarcasm. Either way it falls flat. I have seen your posting style over time. You are an “Open Mouth, Insert Foot” kind of post before you think(if you _do_ think) sort of moron. And if you think I’m shrill, you must think others are fucking hypersonic. Reject my **assessment** all you want, it won’t make it any less true. With your misspellings of common words, might I suggest a dictionary? ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-frist-wants-constitutional-amendment-banning-gay-marriage/185211/96 "2003-06-30T20:14:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Essentially, you are demanding that the victims of prejudice obey rules that you do not expect the bigots to obey. Bigots are free to attack us in any way they please, like the crap Frist is supporting of writing Christian fundamentalist beliefs into law, but we may not react, we may not be angry, we must adhere to a completely passive standard of behavior. Don’t tell me that you don’t favor the Frists of this world when you tie our hands behind our backs like this. Aren’t you better than them? That’s what you keep claiming, but then sink to their level like a rock. Once again, “do unto others…” > [@](#): > > Third, **my rights are not yours to bestow or take away.**. You’re not my master, you’re not some form of noblity who gets to tell the peasants what to do. I’m a citizen of this country, the same as you, and I demand the same level of rights that you enjoy, including marriage. \*\* No one is claiming they want to take away your rights. They are claiming that being happy that an old man is dead is crass and better should be expected. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-frist-wants-constitutional-amendment-banning-gay-marriage/185211/97 "2003-06-30T20:21:12Z")
> [@](#): > > No one is claiming they want to take away your rights. They are claiming that being happy that an old man is dead is crass and better should be expected. Yes, he was an old man. Do you know anything at all about his voting record, about his influence in the Senate, about his work to deprive gay people of their rights? When the time comes, I expect you to thoroughly bitch out the people who rejoice over the deaths of Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-frist-wants-constitutional-amendment-banning-gay-marriage/185211/98 "2003-06-30T20:22:07Z")
Take a chill pill, gang. As the intrepid **elucidator** already pointed out, this is just Frist feeding his pit bulls. Gotta throw 'em what tastes like meat once in a while to keep them from biting _him_, ya know. Doesn’t mean he’s letting them loose any time soon. If this really meant anything, what he said would have been something like “Today, I am requesting the members of our party to join me in passing an amendment to ban …”, not some improvised (un-thought-out) expression that it might be a good idea. You all know what talk is worth in Washington. Look for actions instead. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-frist-wants-constitutional-amendment-banning-gay-marriage/185211/99 "2003-06-30T20:31:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > I am not and have never declared myself right on any issue merely because I am gay. I feel am right on thsi issue for several reasons > > !. You’ve demonstrated that you have no knowledge of Strom Thurmond’s hisotry. right, because i think you should dance on his grave, i have no knowledge of history. plus i’m a bigot. this has all been determined by Flawed Logic[sup]TM[/sup], new from Whammo! > [@](#): > > 1. You insist on saying that “I’m dancing on Strom’s grave” when all I am doing is posting expressions of releif at his passing on a message board. Ypou allow no room for people to post negative opinions of Strom and his career without using the hyperbole of “grave-dancing.” > > 2. You have posted only anger at people posting negatively about Strom; you have not in any way acknowledged the reasons why people feel the way they do. No. “Strom was a jackass”–fine. “Strom was a jackass and i’m glad he is dead”–bad. see the difference? We didn’t evn get into it until page three when you jumped from “not sheding crocodile tears” to “good riddance.” > [@](#): > > When you concern only for the bigot and dismiss all reeaction to his acts, you are siding with the bigots. i again reject that this is what i’m doing, as again assertain that better should be expected from those claiming to be better. Your joy will not convince those on the fence, in fact, they will probably think “those dammed queers are happy that they guy who got us the money for a new hospital is dead! fuck them!” > [@](#): > > You haven’t decried it at all, yet. \*\* Although i am purposfully not decrying this just to annoy you, i reject the assertation that i must constantly and immediatly publically outcry every transgression that ever happens to anyone otherwise i support it. I do have to eat, sleep, work, etc., and doing that instead of repeating like a parrot that i have no problem with gay marriage does not make me a bigot. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-frist-wants-constitutional-amendment-banning-gay-marriage/185211/100 "2003-06-30T20:34:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Reject my assessment all you want, it won’t make it any less true. > > With your misspellings of common words, might I suggest a dictionary? **Mockingbird** , debate the issues, not incidentals. Moreover, bitchy posts like that don’t help one bit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-frist-wants-constitutional-amendment-banning-gay-marriage/185211.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-frist-wants-constitutional-amendment-banning-gay-marriage/185211.md?page=6)