I’ve been semi arguing on 'tother side but this sort of thing pushes my buttons big time.
It assumes quite a bit about other folks - that their moral stance is somehow predicated upon casual thought, vs. deep pondering, that had they experienced one specific other thing, their view would be different.
We see that in pretty much every fucking debate around here. “If you had children, you’d see it my way” “If you had a uterus, you’d sing a different tune” “If one of your loved ones had died this way, you wouldn’t be saying that” etc.
How presumptious.
ONe of the wonderful things about human beings is their ability to empathize - I have not experienced every potential tragedy or joy in my own personal life, but that doesn’t mean that I can’t offer support or have views on the subject. I don’t require that my doctor have experienced every ailment before treating it, nor do I presume that since he hasn’t experienced childbirth, his views, if they are different from mine, are immediately dismissable because he’s not experienced it.
you can, however, suggest that someone has failed to notice specific differences, explaining them, so in the current debate, Mockingbird, Otto, et al could point out specific determining differences between their situations and situations faced by Scylla et al. Merely repeating “you’ve not experienced such and such therefore you have no way of understanding” is bullshit, plain and simple.
You misinterpreted what I wrote (I’ll admit I wasn’t too clear)- you claimed that I allow bigots to get away with hateful statements while only calling “victims of prejudice” on them, and your implication was that celebrating someone’s death is something that a bigot would do. My point is that it’s ugly enough to see a bigot doing it, and it ain’t any prettier to see someone else doing it as well.
That’s exactly it- weep, damn you, weep!
I didn’t “weep” for any of them either. But as has been pointed out MANY TIMES, there’s a big difference between not weeping and celebrating and it ain’t an either/or proposition.
Instead of simply quoting MLK Jr., howsabout doing as he would have done?
What is presumptuous, is that you have put words in our mouths and then criticized us for it.
What was said by some of us to Scylla is that our reasons for feeling as we do is predicated by our experience and that he did not seem able in anyway to grasp that.
Someone who isn’t gay CAN understand. Scylla and some on here can’t seem to understand and are being assholes because of it, trying to recast some of us as monsters for enjoying the fact that Thurmond is dead.
What isbullshit is that you have weighed into another debate in a halfassed way and haven’t taken the time to read through everything and are just shooting your mouth off again.
Excuse the fuck out of me, but how can you fucking claim to know what I have read or not?
I have followed this and the other thread, and yes, it seems to me that you et all have claimed that Scylla can’t understand, and ‘until you’ve experienced this, you cannot understand’.
and that is indeed bullshit. I said it in the other thread as well.
wring, I apologize if I’ve offended you.
My point, however, is that although I can sincerely empathize with gobear and other gay posters, I can never really know what it’s like to suffer daily harassment simply because of who I love.
I’ve never had to face this reality and no matter how much I use my imagine to try and understand what it is like, ultimately I run into a brick wall.
I remember walking down a street in Oakland many years ago.
I was with a friend and he happened to be black.
We were pulled over by a police officer.
It was a fairly innocuous interaction but my friend began to shake with fear and repressed anger.
That’s when I understood that I could empathize all I wanted but I couldn’t understand what it meant to be a black man in America that truly believed that everytime he was stopped by a policeman, he might end up with a bullet in his back.
Well, you can’t claim that Scylla has shown even the barest rudiments of empathy with gay people, so right away you’re onto a non-starter.
But you are correct, up to a point, that ‘until you’ve experienced this, you cannot understand’ bullshit. A concerned heterosexual who has made a serious study of gay issues would certainly be entiled to a respectful hearing. You have never been in prison (that I know of) yet you are extremely knowledgeable about issues facing prisoners because of your job. But someone blueskying grossly uninformed opinions, as Scylla has done, has not earned the same respect for his opinions.
And there’s another element.
Certainly, the doctor’s expertise must be respected, but can he teel you how morning sickness feels? How did it feel when his water broke? How did he cope with his 26 hours of labor?
In the same way, even someone who is genuinely empathetic (which Scylla emphatically is not) cannot tell you the first-person pain many of us have felt.
I am sympathetic to the issues facing black people and am reasonably educated on black history and culture. But if I were to say that I know what it is to be black, I’d get my head handed to me.
jlzania you’ve not offended me, per se. and while I agree that I cannot know exactly how some one else (anyone else) feels, that’s not really the point, either. The fact is, that no one can ‘really know’ how anyone else feels. because we all have different experiences.
however, we’re able to empathize, extrapolate from our own experiences and get a glimmer of understanding. So I generally get pissed off when, for example, I make my stand against capital punishment and are told that since I"ve not experienced having a loved one murdered, my stance can be summarily rejected as ‘not having sufficient experience to really understand’.
Mockingbird - your reply just demonstrates further shrillness. It seems you cannot accept anyone ever disagreeing with you. I feel sorry for that. But I also reject your assesment of me and others. YOu simply do not have sufficient or the right kind of experience in order to judge me.
I did post specific determining differences, and the response was “it could happen to me too,” “how many gay parents have lost their kids” and “why are you asking me these questions?”
Otto that is a fair response. and I agree that that type of response does demonstrate a disinclination of understanding, which is different from stating that “since you’re not gay you can’t possibly understand”.
The “since you’re not ___, you can’t possibly understand” also tends to lead towards “more oppressed than thou” and people ignoring other groups that are targeted.
wring, I once had this argument with Mockingbird. I pointed out that then, he’ll possibly never understand discrimination against women, and the fact that women can’t hide that they’re women, but you can’t tell if someone is gay right away went way over his head. (Of course, I was merely using that example to make a point, not saying who was more harassed than who).
It falls on deaf ears, I’m afraid.
I always try to IMAGINE how I would feel in that kind of situation. Does that help? Like Anne Shirley, I have a great imagination!
Please, you and yours have thrown out bigot so much lately it has become meaningless. I enjoy being called a bigot from you since it proves that you are still lashing out with hate instead of thinking rationally, which means i’m still on the right side.
Maybe i expect better from the more intelligent posters. Mockingbird i expect to ramble around like a schizophrenic werewolf attacking anything that moves with his three brain cells, but from someone who normally is a respectful poster who sees where the other side is coming from, you’ve done a good job at misrepresenting my arguments, turning it into an anti-gay thing and hiding behind a shield of calling me a bigot. Declaring yourself right on any and all gay issues simply because you yourself are gay is laughable and comes off as written as a parody of extremeist position. being gay does not protect you from being wrong, especially on the grave dancing issue.
I don’t really care what Frist does since this crap will never pass. But i resent being labeled on the same side as him simply because i didn’t decry it fast enough to satisfy you. Please point out where i’ve supported him, i’d love to see it since it doesn’t exist.
I am not and have never declared myself right on any issue merely because I am gay. I feel am right on thsi issue for several reasons
!. You’ve demonstrated that you have no knowledge of Strom Thurmond’s hisotry.
You insist on saying that “I’m dancing on Strom’s grave” when all I am doing is posting expressions of releif at his passing on a message board. Ypou allow no room for people to post negative opinions of Strom and his career without using the hyperbole of “grave-dancing.”
You have posted only anger at people posting negatively about Strom; you have not in any way acknowledged the reasons why people feel the way they do.
When you concern only for the bigot and dismiss all reeaction to his acts, you are siding with the bigots.
Aren’t you better than them? That’s what you keep claiming, but then sink to their level like a rock. Once again, “do unto others…”
No one is claiming they want to take away your rights. They are claiming that being happy that an old man is dead is crass and better should be expected.
Yes, he was an old man. Do you know anything at all about his voting record, about his influence in the Senate, about his work to deprive gay people of their rights?
When the time comes, I expect you to thoroughly bitch out the people who rejoice over the deaths of Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein.
Take a chill pill, gang. As the intrepid elucidator already pointed out, this is just Frist feeding his pit bulls. Gotta throw 'em what tastes like meat once in a while to keep them from biting him, ya know. Doesn’t mean he’s letting them loose any time soon.
If this really meant anything, what he said would have been something like “Today, I am requesting the members of our party to join me in passing an amendment to ban …”, not some improvised (un-thought-out) expression that it might be a good idea.
You all know what talk is worth in Washington. Look for actions instead.
right, because i think you should dance on his grave, i have no knowledge of history. plus i’m a bigot. this has all been determined by Flawed Logic[sup]TM[/sup], new from Whammo!
No. “Strom was a jackass”–fine. “Strom was a jackass and i’m glad he is dead”–bad. see the difference? We didn’t evn get into it until page three when you jumped from “not sheding crocodile tears” to “good riddance.”
i again reject that this is what i’m doing, as again assertain that better should be expected from those claiming to be better. Your joy will not convince those on the fence, in fact, they will probably think “those dammed queers are happy that they guy who got us the money for a new hospital is dead! fuck them!”
Although i am purposfully not decrying this just to annoy you, i reject the assertation that i must constantly and immediatly publically outcry every transgression that ever happens to anyone otherwise i support it. I do have to eat, sleep, work, etc., and doing that instead of repeating like a parrot that i have no problem with gay marriage does not make me a bigot.
