# Senator Harry Reid says Iraq War is already lost **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 20, 2007, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-harry-reid-says-iraq-war-is-already-lost/400991 "2007-04-20T20:22:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2007, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-harry-reid-says-iraq-war-is-already-lost/400991/61 "2007-04-26T22:34:14Z")
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus] We are in this war because a very strong majority of the American People really wanted to kick some towel head ass to get even for the WTC bombing. Politics just follows that. [/QUOTE] This is not correct. At the time that Congress gave Bush the authority to use military action against Iraq, a majority of Americans were opposed to going to war, unless we got our traditional allies on board first. If Congress had listened to the people, they would not have authorized the war as they had. They were stuck in the sense that it seemed to be the only way to get the Weapons Inspectors back in, but they could have put more checks in place before a military could actually be taken (like maybe a UNSC vote or something like that). > [@](#): > > [War With Iraq: Americans In No Hurry Oct. 7, 2002](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/06/opinion/polls/main524496.shtml) > > Support for getting U.S. allies on board before any military action has remained constant. Asked whether Iraq presents such a clear danger that the U.S. needs to act now, even without allied backing, or whether the U.S. needs to wait for such backing, Americans expressed the desire to wait. > U.S. SHOULD: > > Now > Act now 29% > Wait for allies 65% > > \ > > THE DOCTRINE OF PRE-EMPTION > > Americans do not support the general doctrine of pre-emption - that is, the idea that one country can launch an attack on another if it thinks it might be attacked first. Only 33% believe that one country should be able to attack another because it thinks that country may attack first. A majority, 56%, believes one country should not be able to attack any other unless it is actually attacked first. > > Americans do not give themselves the right of pre-emption, either (though they are slightly more accepting of the idea when it involves the U.S. particularly). When asked if the United States should act in this pre-emptive fashion, the idea still does not find majority support. 44% believe the U.S. should not attack another country unless the U.S. is attacked first. Only 43% say the U.S. should be able to take a pre-emptive strike against another country that it thinks may attack the U.S. first. ---
**Author:** ![Ignatz\_Kaspir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b19c9b/32.png) [@Ignatz\_Kaspir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignatz_Kaspir)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-harry-reid-says-iraq-war-is-already-lost/400991/62 "2007-04-27T00:08:47Z")
Let’s say we(the U.S.) did leave Iraq, and fast. What then? Will the Sunnis and Shiites some how manage to settle their differences and live happily ever after? Will the extremist groups there just pack up and leave too? In the long run, would it be good for us, and perhaps more importantly, in the short run, would it be good for the Iraqi people? I think it was a big mistake going there in the first place, and that we’d probably all be better off if Saddam was still in power. But that’s not the case. We screwed up their country, and I feel that this has more to do right now with what’s good for the Iraqis than what’s necessarily good for us. Making a major withdrawal couldn’t be good for the Iraqis right now. If you think it’s chaotic now, then just wait until the U.S. is no longer there to police things. I believe we need to stay there because we owe it to the Iraqis, we owe them the most stable a country we can give them, because it’s our fault that their country is so unstable now. This whole invasion shouldn’t have happened, but it did, and the damage is done. Now it’s our responsibility to do whatever we can to clean up the mess we made. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-harry-reid-says-iraq-war-is-already-lost/400991/63 "2007-04-27T00:48:51Z")
We have. It isn’t working. This civil war will go on with us there or not. Its true, its our fault this awful thing happened. And if I believed there was a reasonable hope we could fix this thing, I might think differently. But I don’t. Out now. ---
**Author:** ![Burton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Burton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Burton)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-harry-reid-says-iraq-war-is-already-lost/400991/64 "2007-04-27T01:15:05Z")
It’s not as if anyone in the administration has said we made a huge mistake and we’d like to correct it with your children’s lives. ---
**Author:** ![Ignatz\_Kaspir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b19c9b/32.png) [@Ignatz\_Kaspir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignatz_Kaspir)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-harry-reid-says-iraq-war-is-already-lost/400991/65 "2007-04-27T01:33:31Z")
[QUOTE=Burton] It’s not as if anyone in the administration has said we made a huge mistake and we’d like to correct it with your children’s lives. [/QUOTE] Let’s not forget that Bush didn’t go to war alone. He had to have the support of the Congress, Senate, and American people to some degree before he went to war. And let’s be thankful that’s there’s no draft in place, that every man and woman serving in the military right now is there because they chose to be there, with the knowledge that they may be called upon to go to war at any time. Of course, I’m sure there are plenty of American soldiers in Iraq who’d rather be any place else right now, but I’m sure there are also plenty of American soldiers there who believe in what they’re fighting, and in some cases dying, for. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-harry-reid-says-iraq-war-is-already-lost/400991/66 "2007-04-27T01:35:04Z")
And what would that be, again? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-harry-reid-says-iraq-war-is-already-lost/400991/67 "2007-04-27T01:55:11Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] And what would that be, again? [/QUOTE] Haliburton’s profit margin ? Bush’s attempt to save face ? Keeping Iraqi oil off the market ? ---
**Author:** ![Ignatz\_Kaspir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b19c9b/32.png) [@Ignatz\_Kaspir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignatz_Kaspir)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-harry-reid-says-iraq-war-is-already-lost/400991/68 "2007-04-27T02:04:30Z")
I can’t say for sure what they’re fighting for. But I believe they’re fighting in the short run to keep that country from falling further into chaos, and in the long run for a secure, stable and self-sustenant Iraq; one that would _not_ make a comfy home for Al Qaeda or other anti-American extremist groups. Such groups may come into power down the road by democratic means, of course, but the biggest concern right now is keeping such groups from coming to power by military means. Maybe it was unrealistic to ever believe that Iraq could function well under a Jeffersonian democracy, but regardless of whether or not it could, I believe it is our obligation to leave Iraq no worse off than it was when we first got there in 2003. ---
**Author:** ![Burton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Burton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Burton)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-harry-reid-says-iraq-war-is-already-lost/400991/69 "2007-04-27T02:06:12Z")
I don’t think we need to go over the circumstances that led to the Iraq invasion yet again. The war was over in a matter of days. We’re occupying a sovereign nation that doesn’t want us there. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-harry-reid-says-iraq-war-is-already-lost/400991/70 "2007-04-27T02:14:14Z")
[QUOTE=Ignatz\_Kaspir] I can’t say for sure what they’re fighting for. [/QUOTE] The thin, faint hope of a permanent Republican majority. Having seen that pony, they don’t want to let it get away, and the only way to prevent it from getting away is for some miracle to happen in Iraq which makes them all look like geniuses in the eyes of the electorate. [Tom DeLay put it like this:](http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/casey/4344701.html) > [@](#): > > “2004 is the year we start thinking like a permanent majority: unified, aggressive, rightfully confident of victory and guided as our coalition has always been by three principles — security, prosperity and family.” ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-harry-reid-says-iraq-war-is-already-lost/400991/71 "2007-04-27T02:17:53Z")
[QUOTE=Ignatz\_Kaspir] I can’t say for sure what they’re fighting for. But I believe they’re fighting in the short run to keep that country from falling further into chaos, and in the long run for a secure, stable and self-sustenant Iraq; one that would _not_ make a comfy home for Al Qaeda or other anti-American extremist groups. [/quote] Any Iraq not under a heavy American occupation - one heavier than what we have now - is going to be a good home for Al Qaeda or similar organizations. And I expect an Iraqi government free of our control will be just as hateful to us; for a long time, I expect a major qualification for political power ( and survival ) in an independent Iraq will be to make it clear you hate America. [QUOTE=Ignatz\_Kaspir] Maybe it was unrealistic to ever believe that Iraq could function well under a Jeffersonian democracy, but regardless of whether or not it could, I believe it is our obligation to leave Iraq no worse off than it was when we first got there in 2003. [/QUOTE] Given that we are a major source of Iraq’s problems, that’s one job we can’t do. If we want Iraq to EVER get better, the first step is for us to leav them and stop screwing them up. [QUOTE=Burton] We’re occupying a sovereign nation that doesn’t want us there. [/QUOTE] Can they order us to leave, or toss out all the pro-American business rules we stuck in their laws ? Can they even exert control over their own country ? No; so they are not sovereign, in any meaningful sense. ---
**Author:** ![Ignatz\_Kaspir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b19c9b/32.png) [@Ignatz\_Kaspir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignatz_Kaspir)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-harry-reid-says-iraq-war-is-already-lost/400991/72 "2007-04-27T02:24:25Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] The thin, faint hope of a permanent Republican majority. Having seen that pony, they don’t want to let it get away, and the only way to prevent it from getting away is for some miracle to happen in Iraq which makes them all look like geniuses in the eyes of the electorate. [Tom DeLay put it like this:](http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/casey/4344701.html) [/QUOTE] On the contrary, I believe their best hope at popularity would be to pull out of Iraq immediately. The '06 elections showed that, didn’t they? It is not a popular war. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-harry-reid-says-iraq-war-is-already-lost/400991/73 "2007-04-27T02:50:32Z")
[QUOTE=Ignatz\_Kaspir] On the contrary, I believe their best hope at popularity would be to pull out of Iraq immediately. [/QUOTE] What, admit their error? Admit they’ve squandered billions of dollars and thousands of lives? Admit that they had taken the war on terror on a senseless detour? That’s not going to gain them any friends in the short term, and if they want their permanent majority to start _now_, that’s what they care about. ---
**Author:** ![Ignatz\_Kaspir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b19c9b/32.png) [@Ignatz\_Kaspir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignatz_Kaspir)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-harry-reid-says-iraq-war-is-already-lost/400991/74 "2007-04-27T04:16:47Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] What, admit their error? Admit they’ve squandered billions of dollars and thousands of lives? Admit that they had taken the war on terror on a senseless detour? That’s not going to gain them any friends in the short term, and if they want their permanent majority to start _now_, that’s what they care about. [/QUOTE] Maybe the point is that they actually don’t believe it’s an error. Maybe they believe that good can and still needs to be done in Iraq. Do you really think they couldn’t easily get the spinsters to put a good light on them deciding to pull out of Iraq? If they actually believed this occupation was and continues to be an error, then they’d be committing political suicide by continuing to support it. If they really wanted a permanent majority as much as you suggest, then they’d readily be putting the polls before their own pride. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-harry-reid-says-iraq-war-is-already-lost/400991/75 "2007-04-27T04:37:18Z")
[QUOTE=Ignatz\_Kaspir] Maybe it was unrealistic to ever believe that Iraq could function well under a Jeffersonian democracy, but regardless of whether or not it could, I believe it is our obligation to leave Iraq no worse off than it was when we first got there in 2003. [/QUOTE] Then we have indeed lost this war, for we cannot give them back what we have took from them-their government, their limited stability, their jobs, their security, or their lives. These things are gone. The best we can do at this point is to get the fuck out of that area and hope that, in time, this bad memory fades. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-harry-reid-says-iraq-war-is-already-lost/400991/76 "2007-04-27T04:47:51Z")
[QUOTE=Ignatz\_Kaspir] Maybe the point is that they actually don’t believe it’s an error. Maybe they believe that good can and still needs to be done in Iraq. Do you really think they couldn’t easily get the spinsters to put a good light on them deciding to pull out of Iraq? If they actually believed this occupation was and continues to be an error, then they’d be committing political suicide by continuing to support it. If they really wanted a permanent majority as much as you suggest, then they’d readily be putting the polls before their own pride. [/QUOTE] You’re still not getting it, are you. This isn’t about Iraq. This is about Mr. Bush being a permanent wartime president, with all the powers such a position entitles him to. Even if he was forced to pull out of Iraq, some other manufactured war would pop up somewhere else, most likely Iran, and our troops would be sent there instead. This is about Bush trying to create “Black Hats” so that he can be some kind of comic book hero. Just listen to his speeches, how he describes the goals of those who oppose him-it’s dialogue straight out of a cheap dime store novel or a comic book. He thinks that those who oppose him are doing it only because they hate Truth, Justice and The American Way, not because of economics, religion or any other real world motivation. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-harry-reid-says-iraq-war-is-already-lost/400991/77 "2007-04-27T04:54:54Z")
[QUOTE=Ignatz\_Kaspir] If they really wanted a permanent majority as much as you suggest, then they’d readily be putting the polls before their own pride. [/QUOTE] This presumes that they’re rational. There’s plenty of indications that they’re not: [Bush wants a ‘thank you’:](http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2007/01/17/amid_bloodshed_bush_wants_a_thank_you/) > [@](#): > > ON “60 MINUTES,” President Bush was asked, “Do you think you owe the Iraqi people an apology for not doing a better job?” > > Bush eventually answered, “Not at all. I am proud of the efforts we did. We liberated that country from a tyrant.” > > If Bush stopped there, all he would have been was arrogant. But he kept going: “I think the Iraqi people owe the American people a huge debt of gratitude.” [John Gibson of Fox News:](http://mediamatters.org/items/200704250008) > [@](#): > > GIBSON: Look, good point. The Bremer period is going to take the fall on the Iraq story – dismantling the Baathist organization, not letting anybody who was a Baathist run the electric system or the sewage system or the garbage pickup or any of that stuff. They’re going to take the hit on it. And the Bremer period where they disbanded the army, that’s going to take the hit on it – I guarantee you. > > But, and that’s a mistake, I agree that was a mistake, but who is doing this killing? Give me a break. These are Iraqis killing each other. So what did we do? If you’re saying it’s our fault that **we unmasked them as knuckle-dragging savages from the 10th century** – fine! I’ll take credit. But thanks – but thanks for the observation, They’re just all over the map, begging and condemning and ranting and raving. There doesn’t appear to be any goodwill, or even a lick of sense involved anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Ignatz\_Kaspir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b19c9b/32.png) [@Ignatz\_Kaspir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignatz_Kaspir)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-harry-reid-says-iraq-war-is-already-lost/400991/78 "2007-04-27T19:08:05Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] Then we have indeed lost this war, for we cannot give them back what we have took from them-their government, their limited stability, their jobs, their security, or their lives. These things are gone. The best we can do at this point is to get the fuck out of that area and hope that, in time, this bad memory fades. [/QUOTE] Leave and just hope the bad memory fades? When the true chaos begins for the Iraqis after we leave, if that is to be soon, it will be far worse for them than a bad memory. We may not be able to give them back all they have lost, but I believe we must try our damnedest to keep them from suffering further great losses. That country is very unstable, and while it may be inconvenient for us to continue fighting there, “inconvenient” will be a vast understatement to describe what that country will go through with Syria, Iran, and Al Qaeda doing all they can to get it for themselves with little or no American presence to stand in their way. Like I’ve said, I believe it is our utmost responsibility to give that country back some semblance of stability before we decide to we’re just going to count our losses and throw in the towel. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-harry-reid-says-iraq-war-is-already-lost/400991/79 "2007-04-27T19:13:41Z")
[QUOTE=Ignatz\_Kaspir] Leave and just hope the bad memory fades? When the true chaos begins for the Iraqis after we leave, if that is to be soon, it will be far worse for them than a bad memory. We may not be able to give them back all they have lost, but I believe we must try our damnedest to keep them from suffering further great losses. That country is very unstable, and while it may be inconvenient for us to continue fighting there, “inconvenient” will be a vast understatement to describe what that country will go through with Syria, Iran, and Al Qaeda doing all they can to get it for themselves with little or no American presence to stand in their way. Like I’ve said, I believe it is our utmost responsibility to give that country back some semblance of stability before we decide to we’re just going to count our losses and throw in the towel. [/QUOTE] So, you think that Syria and Iran are going to invade Iraq? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-harry-reid-says-iraq-war-is-already-lost/400991/80 "2007-04-27T22:31:15Z")
[QUOTE=Ignatz\_Kaspir] Like I’ve said, I believe it is our utmost responsibility to give that country back some semblance of stability before we decide to we’re just going to count our losses and throw in the towel. [/QUOTE] That would, arguably, be our responsibility if it were within our power, but it isn’t. Maybe the Iranians can do it, but we can’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-harry-reid-says-iraq-war-is-already-lost/400991.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-harry-reid-says-iraq-war-is-already-lost/400991.md?page=5)