# Senator Kerry calls for "regime change", gets blasted by GOP **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 5, 2003, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-kerry-calls-for-regime-change-gets-blasted-by-gop/166590 "2003-04-05T00:45:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-kerry-calls-for-regime-change-gets-blasted-by-gop/166590/1 "2003-04-05T00:45:39Z")
[Link](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030404/ap_on_go_co/war_kerry_22) In response to the GOP blasting him for his call for regime change, Kerry said: > [@](#): > > “I refuse to have my patriotism or right to speak out questioned. I fought for and earned the right to express my views in this country.” Another notable part of the article: > [@](#): > > He cited last year’s [Republican] campaign against former Georgia Democratic Sen. Max Cleland who lost both legs and an arm in the Vietnam War. > > As part of a broader GOP campaign, Bush and other Republicans criticized Senate Democrats for holding up legislation to create a Department of Homeland Security over a labor provision, suggesting that the delay reflected weakness on national security. Republican Saxby Chambliss unseated the first-term Cleland in the November elections. > > “I watched what they did to Max Cleland last year,” Kerry said. “Shame on them for doing it then and shame on them for trying to do it now.” I’m glad that I’m finally seeing a Democrat with the balls to speak out against the current Administration. I hope Kerry or someone likes him runs for President in 2004… I’d vote for him. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-kerry-calls-for-regime-change-gets-blasted-by-gop/166590/2 "2003-04-05T01:09:28Z")
He’s had my vote before he said all this, now he’s got me telling others. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-kerry-calls-for-regime-change-gets-blasted-by-gop/166590/3 "2003-04-05T01:28:40Z")
He’s playing this with true political craft and skullduggery. He provoked an attack by Tom DeLay, about as odious a human being who ever trod the halls of Congress. Like Newt Gangrene, he has all the characteristics of a rattlesnake, but lacks the warmth. Anybody Tom DeLay hates… Further, I think he smells blood. He thinks that Bush will prove to be vulnerable on Iraq. Not now, not real soon. But after the Victory Parade down Pennsylvania Avenue with our beemish boy and Saddams head on his vorpal blade…comes the hangover. And its gonna be a doozy. Just about a week or so ago, the Admin moved to _cut_ Veterans benefits as it asked for 75 billion bucks for war. You could almost hear Kerry smile as he folded that issue up and tucked it away in his pocket. For later. It makes perfect sense for Kerry to push these issues. His war record as a decorated combat vet compared to Fearless Misleader’s year protecting the sky above Amarillo from Viet Cong aircraft? Not to mention the part about how he wandered off base for a beer and forgot to come back. Beauty part is Kerry doesn’t even have to mention it, he can be “too dignified” to mention it. But I will! Mark Shields will! And so will many others. And if, as seems likely, there are further terrorist attacks, Kerry is in the admirable position of asking “Just how, exactly, did this war make us safer, George? When are our troops coming home, George? Yes, indeed, splendid little war, George, but what good did it to _us_?” For at least a couple months after the Victory Celebration (I expect the Beach Boys will play) Bush will look invulnerable. But the election isn’t being held in May. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-kerry-calls-for-regime-change-gets-blasted-by-gop/166590/4 "2003-04-05T01:46:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*It makes perfect sense for Kerry to push these issues. His war record as a decorated combat vet compared to Fearless Misleader’s year protecting the sky above Amarillo from Viet Cong aircraft? \*\* Who cares? I ignore any politicians military record unless it’s a bad one like dishonorable discharge or being a draft evader. I mean no disrespect, but serving in a war is not qualifications to be President, Senator, or dog catcher. Over 3 million people were in 'Nam. Doesn’t make any of them Presidential material. ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-kerry-calls-for-regime-change-gets-blasted-by-gop/166590/5 "2003-04-05T02:38:49Z")
Wait a minute Posters, you forgot to post what this Kerry guy actually said. He said… **"What we need now is not just a _regime_ change in Saddam Hussein and Iraq, but we need a _regime_ change in the United States," Kerry said.** Apples to apples, huh Kerry? Ha! Don’t cha just love this goofy guy with his goofy assoications? 🙂🙂🙂🙂 🙂🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Verminous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/5e9695/32.png) [@Verminous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Verminous)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-kerry-calls-for-regime-change-gets-blasted-by-gop/166590/6 "2003-04-05T02:47:37Z")
Well, at least Kerry is blunt about it, and didn’t try to spare anyone’s feelings. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-kerry-calls-for-regime-change-gets-blasted-by-gop/166590/7 "2003-04-05T03:01:20Z")
It’s no different from saying vote Bush out in '04. That’s how we change regimes here. ---
**Author:** ![Maximum\_C](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b77776/32.png) [@Maximum\_C](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maximum_C)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-kerry-calls-for-regime-change-gets-blasted-by-gop/166590/8 "2003-04-05T03:03:20Z")
And theres the fact that, you know, he’s right. Our current administration has shown to excell only in disregard for the Constitution and the wishes of our allies overseas. I don’t usually vote for one of the two major parties- I prefer to vote for someone I actually believe in, which for me vacilates between Brown and Nader - but this next election, I’m going to campaign hard for the Democrats. Some people are so destructive it’s worth voting for the lesser evil. -C ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-kerry-calls-for-regime-change-gets-blasted-by-gop/166590/9 "2003-04-05T04:34:13Z")
Bush is the first president that I know of to invade a foreign country with the intent to conquer it without first having been attacked by that country’s military. If anyone knows of another, I’ll be glad to retract the above, but I’ve thought long and hard about that one, and I really can’t find another instance in our history. On top of that, he’s holding American citizens without the right of habeas corpus being extended to them, and holding a bunch of guys on Guantanamo as “enemy combatants”, which sounds a helluva lot like a POW to me, but of course they’re not being granted that status so therefore the Geneva Conventions don’t apply to them. In other words, he’s shredded international law, Constitutional law, and the long tradition of the U.S. respecting international borders unless directly provoked, a tradition which has allowed us to speak with special moral authority up until the day Bush started beating up on Sodamn Insane because his boils started acting up, or whatever reason he pulled out of the crack between those piles. He’s as dangerous as they come, far more so than I credited to him even just a few months ago, which is saying something considering he had to sue to get up there, using goons down in Florida to intimidate the recount at the same time as he was bringing his case to the Supremes. I remember all that, and it’s noted. I’m through with underestimating how dangerous to our liberties he is. Bush has got me seriously spooked. I may even send money to a Democratic Presidential candidate, which would also be a first. Don’t know which one yet, but if Kerry keeps it up, it could be him. ---
**Author:** ![Hermann\_Cheruscan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b782af/32.png) [@Hermann\_Cheruscan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermann_Cheruscan)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-kerry-calls-for-regime-change-gets-blasted-by-gop/166590/10 "2003-04-05T04:35:16Z")
I’d love to get rid of the left wing Republican/Democrat regime and get some real Constitutional Conservatives in there. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-kerry-calls-for-regime-change-gets-blasted-by-gop/166590/11 "2003-04-05T04:38:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > **And if, as seems likely, there are further terrorist attacks, Kerry is in the admirable position of asking "Just how, exactly, did this war make us safer, George? When are our troops coming home, George? Yes, indeed, splendid little war, George, but what good did it to _us_?"** George probably has a summary of John’s remarks regarding Saddam Hussein from 1990-1998 tucked away in preparation. Too easy. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-kerry-calls-for-regime-change-gets-blasted-by-gop/166590/12 "2003-04-05T04:45:13Z")
pantom: During WW2, the United States invaded Vichy France’s territory even though the two countries were officially neutral and enjoyed good relations. Sources: Dwight D. Eisenhower’s Crusade in Europe and Winston Churchill’s history of WW2. The US also occupied Iceland. When Reagan held office, the US invaded Grenada. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-kerry-calls-for-regime-change-gets-blasted-by-gop/166590/13 "2003-04-05T04:46:55Z")
Vichy I can see, and I forgot Grenada. But Iceland? Wow. What was the reason? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-kerry-calls-for-regime-change-gets-blasted-by-gop/166590/14 "2003-04-05T04:56:14Z")
> [@](#): > > George probably has a summary of John’s remarks regarding Saddam Hussein from 1990-1998 tucked away in preparation. Too easy. Not really relevant, what he is criticizing is the President’s blatant flouting of international law in carrying out the invasion of Iraq, not the invasion intself. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-kerry-calls-for-regime-change-gets-blasted-by-gop/166590/15 "2003-04-05T04:56:26Z")
Panama and the Dominican Republic were invaded without direct provocation. Iceland was not exactly invaded. The Icelanders weren’t an Axis nation and didn’t fight the U.S. It was occupied basically to keep Germany from occupying it first. Then, as now, Iceland did not maintain an armed forces. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-kerry-calls-for-regime-change-gets-blasted-by-gop/166590/16 "2003-04-05T05:02:08Z")
pantom: I think, and I may be wrong on this as I’ve read little about the Icelandic forces, it was to secure air bases for protecting convoys and harassing the German Navy, and to also prevent the Germans from taking it over. Here is a website with more information: [http://www.sonic.net/~bstone/history/iceland.shtml](http://www.sonic.net/~bstone/history/iceland.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-kerry-calls-for-regime-change-gets-blasted-by-gop/166590/17 "2003-04-05T05:10:42Z")
My god, I split an infinitive. It’s time to head for bed. Rick: Frankly, I see little difference between occupying a country and invading it. I think the Allies had some pretty good reasons for acting as they did and it seems to have been done in a humane fashion, but I also don’t think England, America & Canada asked the Icelanders “pretty please with cream & sugar, may we come into your country.” I know of at least one Icelander, an SDMB member, who indicated several years ago that he viewed the Icelandic occupation as being inconsistent with America’s professed ideals.I shall not name this person on the grounds that one does not say or write the names of evil spirits lest they appear. Long-time dopers know who I’m talking about. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-kerry-calls-for-regime-change-gets-blasted-by-gop/166590/18 "2003-04-05T05:46:24Z")
And don’t forget Nicaragua, no, not in the 80’s but back in 1927! [http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1986/jul-aug/jennings.html](http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1986/jul-aug/jennings.html) > [@](#): > > U.S. Marines in Nicaragua, 1927-33: > The Second Time Around > The Marines increased their troop strength in Nicaragua throughout January 1927; by late February, there were more than 5400 Marines occupying all the principal cities.6 While the Marines deployed throughout Nicaragua and the United States provided massive aid to the Conservative government and Nicaraguan National Guard, the United States did not intend to enter the fighting directly. In May 1927, the United States negotiated an end to the hostilities, reportedly threatening the Liberals that the Marines would take to the field against them if the Liberals did not come to terms.7 > > Although this agreement ended the Liberal-Conservative conflict, one of the Liberal leaders, Augusto Sandino, felt that the Liberals had sold out to the Americans. He vowed to continue to fight against the U.S. occupation. On 16 July 1927, Sandino and his forces attacked the Marine garrison at Ocotal. > > The battle for Ocotal: first dive bombing in history: > > [snip] > > Most of the rebels fled from the bombing attack, but a small number continued to fight. The ground battle continued until after 1700 hours. When it was over, Sandino had lost as many as 300 of his estimated 400-500 men who participated in the battle; Marine and Guard losses were placed at one dead and five wounded.15 > > The battle at Ocotal proved significant for air power by introducing several innovations to air warfare. As Neill Macaulay, a historian and expert on Sandino, observes, the Marine aviators conducted "the first organized dive-bombing attack in history––long before the Nazi Luftwaffe was popularly credited with the ‘innovation’."16 Another authority on the Marine campaign, Lejeune Cummins, adds that the battle marked "the first time in military annals that the relief of a beleaguered town was effected through the air."17 > > The battle at Ocotal made a definite impression on Sandino also. Before the battle, he reportedly belittled the airplanes and bombs and was quoted in the New York Times as telling his men that "they only made noise."18 Once the air attack began, his followers were concentrated in groups, making them better targets for the Marine pilots. Richard Millett, a historian on Central America, states that Sandino “admittedly, had completely omitted from his pre-battle calculations” the activity of the Marine aircraft.19 The defeat was costly, but Sandino learned from his mistakes; after Ocotal, Sandino "concentrated on ambushes and sudden raids instead of open attacks on a strong and fortified enemy."20 You are not mistaken, that was just the second intervention/invasion that showed the level of commitment to democracy that the US showed to the locals. (This being a military history cite, notice the lack of any collateral damage in the record (This is pre-presition bombing), AFAICR several of those counted as Sandino’s men were peasants that lived there.) I think recently America was getting better, but this current president has a record of appointing “diplomats” of the old school to deal with the backyard nations. As for the matter at hand: I see also in other reports that after the GOP jumped to criticize Kerry, he has not done the typical democrat maneuver: to curl up and backtrack after being call upon, he essentially has said: “bite me” to the republicans. So far, this guy has my vote. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![errata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/839c29/32.png) [@errata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/errata)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-kerry-calls-for-regime-change-gets-blasted-by-gop/166590/19 "2003-04-05T05:49:44Z")
I liked Kerry’s stand, but I wish he hadn’t used the word “fight.” He should keep his cool and attack a little more intelligently. Anger and indignation are not the best friends for the camera. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-kerry-calls-for-regime-change-gets-blasted-by-gop/166590/20 "2003-04-05T05:51:39Z")
**Blaron** : That’s what Kerry will have to do, stick to matters of how this was handled ever so terribly through the UN. He’ll be answering to Howard Dean on war issues before either of them faces GWB. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-kerry-calls-for-regime-change-gets-blasted-by-gop/166590.md?page=2)