# Senator Russ Feingold moves to censure Bush over NSA wiretaps **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2006, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-russ-feingold-moves-to-censure-bush-over-nsa-wiretaps/348377 "2006-03-14T23:03:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-russ-feingold-moves-to-censure-bush-over-nsa-wiretaps/348377/41 "2006-03-15T17:05:21Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > If he were to run for president, he’d find the left behind him, but none of the institutional forces of the Democratic Party enthusiastic about his run. Sadly, I have to agree with **Mr. Moto** on this, although I think this reflects more on the sad state of the Democratic Party then on Senator Feingold. I recently learned that there are 19 sitting Democratic Senators who co-sponsored Senator Feinstein’s resolution to censure Bill Clinton. Not the resolution that was proposed to head off impeachment, the resolution that was proposed _after_ impeachment was already off the table. _Nineteen_, and that’s just counting the ones that are still in the Senate today. This is the modern Democratic party, folks: more willing to censure Bill Clinton over a blowjob then they are to censure George Bush for what polls suggest a majority of Americans think was illegal wiretapping. I’m going to make a prediction: a Republican will be President in 2009, because the Democrats couldn’t win the election if George Bush went on national TV tomorrow and held up a 7-11. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-russ-feingold-moves-to-censure-bush-over-nsa-wiretaps/348377/42 "2006-03-15T17:16:12Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Is there anything “productive” you would suggest to bring accountability to the White House over the NSA surveillance? There will be no senate investigation apparently, and nothing else is being has been done. Exactly. The only way to hold Bush accountable is for the Democrats to win more seats in Congress in November. I don’t see how this action helps that. In fact, it probably makes it hard for them to do so since it is very divisive inside that very party. I’m not suggesting that Feingold must supress his own views “for the good of the party”, but he can express those views in plenty of other ways without doing damage to the party. He’s more or less playing into the hands of the Republicans on this one. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-russ-feingold-moves-to-censure-bush-over-nsa-wiretaps/348377/43 "2006-03-15T17:18:14Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Is there anything “productive” you would suggest to bring accountability to the White House over the NSA surveillance? There will be no senate investigation apparently, and nothing else is being has been done. Well, at the very least Feingold could have gotten the minority leadership behind the measure. Barring that, he could have lined up cosponsors ahead of time. He did neither, which suggests either incompetence or rhetorical intemperance to me. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-russ-feingold-moves-to-censure-bush-over-nsa-wiretaps/348377/44 "2006-03-15T17:54:45Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Exactly. The only way to hold Bush accountable is for the Democrats to win more seats in Congress in November. [Don tinfoil hat] Or the republicans could decide to support the rule of law. [/Don tinfoil hat] ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-russ-feingold-moves-to-censure-bush-over-nsa-wiretaps/348377/45 "2006-03-15T18:02:30Z")
I think Feingold is wonderful. It’s nice to see someone stand up for principle, particularly for an issue that has no legs at all with the people. A censure would indeed be appropriate, but that isn’t coming. But at least this gets someone on record as having been in vocal opposition to Bush’s illegal policies. If this gets to a vote, great. It would force Hillary to vote against it and expose her as the Vichy Dem that she is. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-russ-feingold-moves-to-censure-bush-over-nsa-wiretaps/348377/46 "2006-03-15T18:07:26Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > [Don tinfoil hat] > > Or the republicans could decide to support the rule of law. > > [/Don tinfoil hat] In this case? Unlikely. \*\* BLD\*\*: Vichy Dem! I like it. Did you make that up? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-russ-feingold-moves-to-censure-bush-over-nsa-wiretaps/348377/47 "2006-03-15T18:19:53Z")
Veni, vidi, vichy… I came, I saw, I caved. And this just in from _Carpetbagger Report_, [http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/](http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/) "RNC Chairman Ken Mehlman sent around an email last night to his list, highlighting his take on Sen. Feingold’s censure resolution… > [@](#): > > This week, liberal Democrat Russ Feingold called on the Senate to censure the President for a program that is successfully stopping terrorists. After months of searching, Democrat leaders are finally beginning to find their agenda: take away the tools America needs to fight terror… When you only have one drum you bang it and bang it and bang it… ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-russ-feingold-moves-to-censure-bush-over-nsa-wiretaps/348377/48 "2006-03-15T18:24:19Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Exactly. The only way to hold Bush accountable is for the Democrats to win more seats in Congress in November. I don’t see how this action helps that. In fact, it probably makes it hard for them to do so since it is very divisive inside that very party. Not his fault. I remember starting a thread after the 2002 midterms, titled [Memo to Democrats: You Can’t Beat Something With Nothing](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=142909). I suspect that’s still true, even given the GOP’s self-inflicted wounds. Somebody has to drag this party into taking a stand on _something_, or they’ll probably wind up losing anyway. I mean, if Bush admits to breaking the law routinely over a 4-year period, and the Dems can’t stand up and be in favor of officially admonishing him over it…fuckin’ _hopeless_, that’s what they are. Feingold was right to talk about them “cowering.” Why should anyone vote for this group of craven cowards? I can see the commercials now: “Vote for the scaredycats who are afraid of their own shadows - they’re still better than the Republicans, who are bad for reasons we’re too scared to name.” > [@](#): > > He’s more or less playing into the hands of the Republicans on this one. No, that would be the rest of the Dems who are doing that. When Feingold runs in 2008, maybe he’ll take Murtha as his running mate. Be good to see two Dems with actual _cojones_ on the same ticket. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-russ-feingold-moves-to-censure-bush-over-nsa-wiretaps/348377/49 "2006-03-15T18:25:39Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > In this case? Unlikely. > \*\* > BLD\*\*: Vichy Dem! I like it. Did you make that up? I’ve heard it before, like at this wackjob’s blog: > **[Vichy Democrats](http://vichydems.blogspot.com/)** > > Patriotic Democrats, Perversely Pragmatic AND Doggedly Resisting the Vichys, DINOs, Blue Dogs, Triangulators, and DLC Accommodationists. > > And Still Dogging Joe Lieberman Until He's Festering in His Political Grave, of course. Now that’s a guy who _really_ want’s the Democratic Party to eat their own. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-russ-feingold-moves-to-censure-bush-over-nsa-wiretaps/348377/50 "2006-03-15T18:35:56Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > In this case? Unlikely. > \*\* > BLD\*\*: Vichy Dem! I like it. Did you make that up? Oh heavens no, John. It’s a staple of the pinko sites that I frequent. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-russ-feingold-moves-to-censure-bush-over-nsa-wiretaps/348377/51 "2006-03-15T18:50:35Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Not his fault. Not to overplay this censure thing (because it isn’t that big a deal), but I hope you find solace in that when the Dems remain the minority party after November. > [@](#): > > When Feingold runs in 2008, maybe he’ll take Murtha as his running mate. Be good to see two Dems with actual _cojones_ on the same ticket. I hope Feingold does run. Or rather, that he continues to run. And if he gets the Dem nomination (highly unlikely as that may be), a Feingold/Murtha ticket pitched against McCain/Rice or McCain/Barbour would be a real election for a change!! ---
**Author:** ![EEMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a6a055/32.png) [@EEMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EEMan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-russ-feingold-moves-to-censure-bush-over-nsa-wiretaps/348377/52 "2006-03-15T18:55:48Z")
I would rather see Rice/Mcain myself for a REAL change ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-russ-feingold-moves-to-censure-bush-over-nsa-wiretaps/348377/53 "2006-03-15T19:08:52Z")
> [@EEMan](#): > > I would rather see Rice/Mcain myself for a REAL change One wonders how much of a change either would represent. Rice is Bush’s protege and McCain is now bending over backwards sucking up to Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-russ-feingold-moves-to-censure-bush-over-nsa-wiretaps/348377/54 "2006-03-15T19:11:47Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > When Feingold runs in 2008, maybe he’ll take Murtha as his running mate. Be good to see two Dems with actual _cojones_ on the same ticket. I had a dog once, long time back. He had balls. What he didn’t have was a lick of sense. ---
**Author:** ![EEMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a6a055/32.png) [@EEMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EEMan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-russ-feingold-moves-to-censure-bush-over-nsa-wiretaps/348377/55 "2006-03-15T19:12:13Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > One wonders how much of a change either would represent. Rice is Bush’s protege and McCain is now bending over backwards sucking up to Bush. I’ve never understood how Bush can be both an idiot and a mastermind; a simpleton and a man capible of Machiavellian schemes, but maybe that is just me. Rice does her job well, but she isn’t exactly a ‘yes’ woman, and with a PhD to her credit, i’m not sure she is Bush’s Protege ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-russ-feingold-moves-to-censure-bush-over-nsa-wiretaps/348377/56 "2006-03-15T19:26:22Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Not to overplay this censure thing (because it isn’t that big a deal), but I hope you find solace in that when the Dems remain the minority party after November. The Dems were going to remain a minority party either way. They may as well have someone show some spine and take a stand while they were doing it. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-russ-feingold-moves-to-censure-bush-over-nsa-wiretaps/348377/57 "2006-03-15T19:27:56Z")
> [@EEMan](#): > > I’ve never understood how Bush can be both an idiot and a mastermind; a simpleton and a man capible of Machiavellian schemes, but maybe that is just me. I’d break it down like this: he’s not dumb, and when he cares about something, he can actually be pretty smart. He cares about tax cuts; he cares about political dominance; he doesn’t care about nitty-gritty policy stuff. I’d say Rove is still the real mastermind of Bush’s and the GOP’s political success from 2000 to the present, but Bush isn’t exactly a sock in that respect; he’s good and ke knows what he’s doing. > [@](#): > > Rice does her job well, but she isn’t exactly a ‘yes’ woman, Any evidence on this? > [@](#): > > and with a PhD to her credit, i’m not sure she is Bush’s Protege Why should the Ph.D. make a difference here? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-russ-feingold-moves-to-censure-bush-over-nsa-wiretaps/348377/58 "2006-03-15T19:34:13Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Not to overplay this censure thing (because it isn’t that big a deal), but I hope you find solace in that when the Dems remain the minority party after November. We’ve tried the minimal-confrontation approach in 2002 and 2004, and it worked _so_ well. When the other party periodically accuses those in my party of anything up to and including being in bed with the terrorists, it’s time to try something new: to not be afraid to accuse them of the things they’ve actually done. > [@](#): > > I hope Feingold does run. Or rather, that he continues to run. And if he gets the Dem nomination (highly unlikely as that may be), a Feingold/Murtha ticket pitched against McCain/Rice or McCain/Barbour would be a real election for a change!! _Barbour??_ Yer kidding. Before he ran for MS Gov in 2004, he was your quintessential inside-the-beltway lifer. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-russ-feingold-moves-to-censure-bush-over-nsa-wiretaps/348377/59 "2006-03-15T19:34:31Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Not to overplay this censure thing (because it isn’t that big a deal), but I hope you find solace in that when the Dems remain the minority party after November. This is by no means assured. As a matter of fact, I rather think that the House is in play. “Speaker Pelosi” has a nice ring to it. And if Bush and Cheney were to meet untimely demises… ---
**Author:** ![EEMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a6a055/32.png) [@EEMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EEMan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-russ-feingold-moves-to-censure-bush-over-nsa-wiretaps/348377/60 "2006-03-15T19:36:22Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Any evidence on this? That she isn’t a yes woman, or that she is good at her job? She has been quoted a number of times as disagreeing with a policy, or suggesting a different one, then she will still do what is required of her as Sec of State. “Good at her job” of course is an opinion, but it is a commonly held one (from my personal expirence; and if we can extrapilate polling data and her ‘run’ against Mrs. Clinton) > [@](#): > > Why should the Ph.D. make a difference here? I guess it wouldn’t if you take the opinion that Bush isn’t stupid. If you think he is a simpleton then it would go to the ‘she is too smart for that’ arguement. I would see her more as a Protoge of Rove (politically) and Powell (professionally), not of Bush who seems to depend on her, more than direct her. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-russ-feingold-moves-to-censure-bush-over-nsa-wiretaps/348377.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senator-russ-feingold-moves-to-censure-bush-over-nsa-wiretaps/348377.md?page=4)